jim_32766 0 #26 April 19, 2010 ______________________________________________ QuoteSkydivers can't file and fly IRF flight plans for a skydive QuoteNot entirely true. Jumps are made above 17,999 feet which is IFR country only. ______________________________________________ While it is true that skydives are made above 17,999ft MSL, only the pilot in command has filed and is flying a IFR flight plan when that occurs. Even in that situation the rules for cloud clearance apply for the skydive activity. The individual skydivers involved in the jump do not file and fly IFR flight plans. The FAR is clear regarding VFR cloud clearance for the skydivers, and for the pilot, for the skydive activity. There are actually two separately stated subparts to the prohibition stated in 105.17 that make it clear we skydivers have to stay clear of clouds: "No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft— (a) Into or through a cloud, or (b) When the flight visibility or the distance from any cloud is less than that prescribed in the following table:" (expanded text from table is shown below) While at 1,200 feet or less above the surface regardless of the MSL altitude - 3 mile visibility, 500 feet below, 1,000 feet above, 2,000 feet horizontal More than 1,200 feet above the surface but less than 10,000 feet MSL - 3 mile visibility, 500ft below, 1000ft above, 2000 horizontal More than 1,200 feet above the surface and at or above 10,000 feet MSL - 5 mile visibility, 1000ft below, 1000ft above, and 1 mile horizontal Taking this all the way back to the OP - his decision was 100% correct. As you can see from the FAR, the pilot is also responsible for the skydivers regarding cloud clearance and should not have been turning the light green while in a cloud, or in a position that would cause the skydivers to violate the cloud clearance rules if they were to exit.The meaning of life . . . is to make life have meaning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #27 April 19, 2010 lol.... Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ps5601 0 #28 April 19, 2010 From the OP's language I'm guessing he is not American. In some countries the pilot (and possibly the skydivers) were correct in their "go". In many European countries jump planes and pilots are cleared to fly into and through clouds. At many European DZs the green light means "pilot is ready for you to jump when you are ready" - green frequently DOES NOT mean "jump now". The actual go/no go is up to the jump master/spotter. The actual rule depends on the drop zone. As such the pilot may have broken no rules etc (although you can argue that if in a country where jumping through cloud is not permitted then the pilot was not very smart to run in through cloud). However in some countries it IS LEGAL to jump through cloud, and the green light MAY mean "jump now". In which case the pilot and jumpers would be correct in saying "go". That being said - if you are not happy to jump do not allow peer pressure to over rule your better judgement. This is just one of the reasons why it is important to know what the local rules and customs are BEFORE getting on the plane - not every DZ or country has the same rules and standards. Blue skies Paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #29 April 19, 2010 So, where the heck are you? As has been mentioned, what is legal, customary and even safe can vary depending on where you are. So, where are you? If you don't want to fill in your profile, that's fine. But at least tell us what country you are in. Thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RustyOats 0 #30 April 19, 2010 I'm in the US. While new to skydiving I am not new to aviation sports and know there are some rules that just don't get followed to a "T" most of the time and was wondering if this one of the "in practice" bendable rules and if exiting from a cloud was fairly common or not. I was more concerned with being in a cloud with a pilot not current for IFR than hitting some yokel without a radio at 13K (while that still is a concern) Having a little bit of IFR PIC time I know enough to get nervous in a cloud with a pilot I don't know and no IFR flight plan. I just don't understand why the DZ would bust VFR regs for an extra 500 feet. They don't give a refund if the plane only get to 12900 do they? Should I be concerned with free fall collision during or right after a non linked exit from a cloud? Thanks for all your replies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hchunter614 0 #31 April 19, 2010 The bigger concer is the little Cessna that is flying below the clouds like they should be for VFR, not some "yokel without a radio at 13K". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #32 April 20, 2010 QuoteI'm in the US. While new to skydiving I am not new to aviation sports and know there are some rules that just don't get followed to a "T" most of the time and was wondering if this one of the "in practice" bendable rules and if exiting from a cloud was fairly common or not. I was more concerned with being in a cloud with a pilot not current for IFR than hitting some yokel without a radio at 13K (while that still is a concern) Having a little bit of IFR PIC time I know enough to get nervous in a cloud with a pilot I don't know and no IFR flight plan. I just don't understand why the DZ would bust VFR regs for an extra 500 feet. They don't give a refund if the plane only get to 12900 do they? Should I be concerned with free fall collision during or right after a non linked exit from a cloud? Thanks for all your replies. The willingness to ignore the VFR rules for skydiving might in part depend on what the air traffic is like around your dropzone. I don't mean to say that is right or acceptable, but as you say, some consider these rules bendable. Where I am, I don't want to bend this stuff at all. My home dz is in some busy airspace. There are a number of standard instrument routes to/from SF Bay Area airports, but that traffic is usually well above anywhere we are. We are near a heavily used corridor for all sorts of lighter aircraft entering or leaving the Bay Area airspace. This includes both IFR and VFR traffic, so, it is not impossible that a cloud would have traffic in it. We also have an active glider population at the airport. Guess what, they share the VFR space around the clouds with us. As I said, I have no interest in bending any cloud clearance rules. There's just too much aluminum floating around where I jump. But if you are in the middle of nowhere, with little air traffic, I can maybe see where some might not feel as strongly as I do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #33 April 20, 2010 Quote....say the base is at 6,000ft and VFR underneath. You track out of that cloud and BAM. Lights out for everybody involved. Tracking in a cloud could be "lights out", too. Beware.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #34 April 20, 2010 I was always taught to hold me breath before entering,,,, smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dudeman17 269 #35 April 20, 2010 Quote Quote When you get in a situation like that and everyone back inside the plane is yelling "GO!", just step back out of the way and let them approach the door and make their own decisions. That way you're not holding them up and they can't get mad at you. And if they choose to jump anyway, then that's between them, the S&TA, and the FAA. A better way(and funnier), while everyone is yelling, put your hand up to the ear and keep saying "What, I can't hear you". Gee, Tim, I seem to remember one instance when YOU were yelling 'GO GO GO!!" at ME when I was in the door, and us having a 'discussion' about it after. Hehehe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #36 April 20, 2010 QuoteOne TM was shouting "Look! I have a thousand jumps and I say it's OK to go! So GO!" Winsor (who was looking out the door) said "No, we're not going. What don't you get?"... Wonder if I knew him... Was up on a load of 6 tandems when we got a call from the ground to land as it was raining at the LZ. One of the TM's was insistent that he and his student were going anyway. Only the other Five TMs between him and the door kept him in the plane. We landed in a massive downpour. He usually only came out when he had brought a large student group and was making money off the students 3 ways... I think he was asked to leave after that... something about having his priorities out of order. JW PS - I think the pilot was a bit stressed on that one... landing a full load, tail-dragger in a downpour... but, he stayed VFR.Always remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrbiceps 0 #37 April 20, 2010 Our dz in australia has cloud clearance and i did exit once in the middle of a cloud which was fun. We quite often jump with a full layer of cloud around 4k so when we jump we cant see any ground at all, just fluffy white clouds. I suppose we trust the pilot and the gps to drop us off where we should be. Havn't had a problem so far. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #38 April 20, 2010 Quote Our dz in australia has cloud clearance and i did exit once in the middle of a cloud which was fun. We quite often jump with a full layer of cloud around 4k so when we jump we cant see any ground at all, just fluffy white clouds. I suppose we trust the pilot and the gps to drop us off where we should be. Havn't had a problem so far. And, if done with the controls that I have heard are in place in the land of OZ, I expect that the risks can be minimized. JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #39 April 21, 2010 QuoteNot only can you not see the ground but you also can't see any other aircraft that might be below the clouds. And people. You might be under canopy when someone else comes through the cloud in freefall. You can't see through the cloud, neither can they. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #40 April 21, 2010 IOW if your pilot descends fast enough to scare modern, electronic, student AADs at 750 to 1040 feet AGL, he is probably also scaring other pilots, buy descending too fast in the traffic pattern ... supremely stupid behaviour. Stupid behaviour is illegal in most countries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #41 April 21, 2010 Quote IOW if your pilot descends fast enough to scare modern, electronic, student AADs at 750 to 1040 feet AGL, he is probably also scaring other pilots, buy descending too fast in the traffic pattern ... supremely stupid behaviour. Stupid behaviour is illegal in most countries. I've heard some complaints from other pilots about how jump pilots fly patterns . . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #42 April 21, 2010 Quote Quote A better way(and funnier), while everyone is yelling, put your hand up to the ear and keep saying "What, I can't hear you". Gee, Tim, I seem to remember one instance when YOU were yelling 'GO GO GO!!" at ME when I was in the door, and us having a 'discussion' about it after. Hehehe. Not sure who you are so it would be hard to discuss. Fill out your profile if your are going to make accusations in a public forum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dean358 0 #43 April 21, 2010 Putting aside the issue of wether it's OK for a skydiver to decide if the FARs apply to them or not (sigh) there's another reason not to jump through clouds: there can be a LOT of traffic under them. You know those white puffy clouds that fill the sky on a beautiful day? They're generally created by a rising column of air, i.e. a thermal. Those of us that fly sailplanes, paragliders or hangliders ride those thermals to stay aloft. So we spend many hours in the sky CIRCLING DIRECTLY UNDER THOSE BIG WHITE PUFFY CLOUDS. Please remind the people screaming at you to get out about this next time they want to blindly drop through one of those big cotton balls below the jump plane.www.wci.nyc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #44 April 22, 2010 Which reminds me...if gliders and skydivers are in the air together, they should have some rules in place about sharing air space....i.e., you guys fly over there, we'll fly over here...and never the twain shall meet.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #45 April 22, 2010 QuoteWhich reminds me...if gliders and skydivers are in the air together, they should have some rules in place about sharing air space....i.e., you guys fly over there, we'll fly over here...and never the twain shall meet. We have this case in EFRY. Skydivers providing and publishing the "jump sector" before jumping, so gliders know where they can expect skydivers from the sky. E.g. From 20 to 110 degrees from the center point of the field upto 2km. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #46 April 22, 2010 QuoteWhich reminds me...if gliders and skydivers are in the air together, they should have some rules in place about sharing air space....i.e., you guys fly over there, we'll fly over here...and never the twain shall meet. I've jumped at 2 places (and flown gliders at one of them) where a DZ and gliderport share the same airport (Hinckley and Elsinore). Doesn't seem to be a problem.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mik 2 #47 April 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteWhich reminds me...if gliders and skydivers are in the air together, they should have some rules in place about sharing air space....i.e., you guys fly over there, we'll fly over here...and never the twain shall meet. I've jumped at 2 places (and flown gliders at one of them) where a DZ and gliderport share the same airport (Hinckley and Elsinore). Doesn't seem to be a problem. The last time I jumped at a DZ in the UK (at a DZ that shares the airport with a gliding school), a glider flew up the jump run as people were opening. Several people - including me - found themselves a lot closer to the glider than they would wish in freefall /tracking - especially at a DZ where there was a double fatality a few years back when a jumper hit a glider in freefall (attributed to the glider being in the wrong place). On this occasion, it was thought that the glider came from one of the other schools in the area - the glider pilots sharing the DZ are reported to be very good at keeping out of the way. As far as I know, efforts to trace the pilot failed. *********************************************** I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #48 April 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteWhich reminds me...if gliders and skydivers are in the air together, they should have some rules in place about sharing air space....i.e., you guys fly over there, we'll fly over here...and never the twain shall meet. I've jumped at 2 places (and flown gliders at one of them) where a DZ and gliderport share the same airport (Hinckley and Elsinore). Doesn't seem to be a problem. Weston-on-the-Green springs to mind too. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #49 April 23, 2010 QuoteThe pilot was wrong for being in the cloud in the first place. He/she was also wrong for turning on the green light, in affect giving permission for the jump. The jumpers yelling for people to exit were wrong. If your coach was planning on exiting while in the cloud, he/she was wrong. If the DZO allows the pilots to drop jumpers in clouds, he/she is wrong. If your S&TA (assuming you jump at a USPA DZ) allows jumpers to exit while in clouds, he/she is wrong. Seeing a pattern here? That really depends where you are from and where you jump. I know the rules in the USA are quite stringent for jumping while clouds are around. Here it is more reasonable, without controlled airspace and a 'cloud manual', you must fly VFR, not jump through 8/8 which includes exiting inside a cloud. You must have a clear view of sight to the ground to jump, and this is to allow you to determine if you are in the correct position. A dropzone can apply for a 'cloud manual' issued by CASA (Australia) and CAA (New Zealand). You ise a GPS of aviation standard to determine you position and you are in contact with the control tower. Theparachutist must not enter cloud after deployment, but the cloud manual explains how to cope with it if this happens. this requires a GCO with a raidi to the plane, the GCO gives the winds and searches for any un-announced traffic (plenty of those idiots aroud). This Communication MUST be performed before the drop is legal. The cloud manual must be read and understood by everyone that jumps under such conditions and a certain level of experience is also required. The cloud manual must be signed by all of those that have undergone the breifing and they must have it signed off in their logbook. Cloud manual jumping is still VFR for the aircraft! It is not inteneded to allow jumpers to climb in cloud and open in cloud which does happen, I admit, I have jumped in what we call 15/8ths (exit in cloud, the whole jump in cloud and with a 1500' cloud base). This is not within the rules and is usually my last jump. What you said is true for the United States, but not for everywhere! Remember, this is an international forum."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #50 April 23, 2010 Quote Quote What you said is true for the United States, but not for everywhere! Remember, this is an international forum. The dude's in the US and I was answering his question. But thanks for that.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
