RustyOats 0 #1 April 18, 2010 I am curious of experienced jumpers view of exiting from a cloud. I was on a load yesterday doing my 13th jump with a coach and the green light came on in a cloud (GPS spot) the majority of the load was screaming GO but there were a few experienced jumpers that wouldn't get out either so we descended 500 feet to clear air and exited but after a good bit of yelling. I felt like kind of a wanker saying I wouldn't exit even though I knew the clouds ended just a few hundred feet below and my coach didn't seem worried about it but I have heard don't get out if you cant see the ground so I said no go. Am I being a little too uptight about industrial haze or is there some danger in it I haven't thought of yet? I know the regs just looking for more "in practice" information. How would you handle the situation? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hchunter614 0 #2 April 18, 2010 Not only can you not see the ground but you also can't see any other aircraft that might be below the clouds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RustyOats 0 #3 April 18, 2010 How good of a scan for air traffic do most people do in clear air anyway? Does the cloud really change much? The pilots radios he dropping jumpers, right? Do most dz's refuse to drop jumpers from a cloud or is it usually looked the other way on? I.E industrial haze... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
humbled1 0 #4 April 18, 2010 Personally I have gotten out on green when I could ONLY see clou...I mean Industrial Haze! Regardless, you did the right thing! I am impressed you did not give in to the other jumpers bitchin...it took me a few hundred jumps before I was able and willing to tune them out and worry about my ass first! IMO, unless you feel very confident about making it back from a long spot or an off dz landing, it is VERY important to have a visual spot of the DZ before exiting Good job!"Tell ya the truth, I don't think this is a brains kind of operation." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 369 #5 April 18, 2010 QuoteI am curious of experienced jumpers view of exiting from a cloud. I was on a load yesterday doing my 13th jump with a coach and the green light came on in a cloud (GPS spot) the majority of the load was screaming GO but there were a few experienced jumpers that wouldn't get out either so we descended 500 feet to clear air and exited but after a good bit of yelling. I felt like kind of a wanker saying I wouldn't exit even though I knew the clouds ended just a few hundred feet below and my coach didn't seem worried about it but I have heard don't get out if you cant see the ground so I said no go. Am I being a little too uptight about industrial haze or is there some danger in it I haven't thought of yet? I know the regs just looking for more "in practice" information. How would you handle the situation? The pilot was wrong for being in the cloud in the first place. He/she was also wrong for turning on the green light, in affect giving permission for the jump. The jumpers yelling for people to exit were wrong. If your coach was planning on exiting while in the cloud, he/she was wrong. If the DZO allows the pilots to drop jumpers in clouds, he/she is wrong. If your S&TA (assuming you jump at a USPA DZ) allows jumpers to exit while in clouds, he/she is wrong. Seeing a pattern here? I can't tell you if you're a wanker, but I can say that in this case you weren't. I also can't tell you how f*cking sick I am of people who not only think it's ok to bust FAR's, but also think it's ok to order other people to break them too. Stand your ground. The cloud rules are there for a reason. And for you f*cksticks that were yellin' at my man to jump, shut the f*ck up and sit down. He was doing the right thing. Save your horsesh*t for the bonfire.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #6 April 18, 2010 +1 Well said. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #7 April 18, 2010 You did the right thing by declining to jump in those conditions, in which you are unable to verify your position over the ground, and that the air below was clear of other aircraft. When you get in a situation like that and everyone back inside the plane is yelling "GO!", just step back out of the way and let them approach the door and make their own decisions. That way you're not holding them up and they can't get mad at you. And if they choose to jump anyway, then that's between them, the S&TA, and the FAA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jim_32766 0 #8 April 18, 2010 Unless the pilot had filed and was flying an active IFR flight plan there are several "wrongs" in this situation. The plane should not have been in the the cloud to start. Skydivers can't file and fly IRF flight plans for a skydive so no jumpers could exit the plane into a cloud without more violations. You definitely were in the "right" by staying in the plane and requesting proper cloud clearance. This all assumes you were jumping in the US under FAA rules. I've heard there are some countries that allow an in-cloud exit, and through cloud jumps. Blue skies! (it really means sky blue - not cloud gray)The meaning of life . . . is to make life have meaning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hchunter614 0 #9 April 19, 2010 If I'm spotting I lay down on my stomach and stick my head out of the door to check for traffic when the door opens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencebuster 7 #10 April 19, 2010 Not much to say beyond what Chuck had to say. Once you start bending the rules you are on a slippery slope. Better to say NO and let the pilot get you out of the clouds before you jump. It isn't going to kill anybody to descend the airplane a couple of hundred feet. But, you might get killed if you hit the VFR plane you can't see when you exit above or in the clouds. I have paid for a couple of airplane rides rather than get out in sketchy cloud conditions and I am glad I did.Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208 AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freefalle 0 #11 April 19, 2010 QuoteIf I'm spotting I lay down on my stomach and stick my head out of the door to check for traffic when the door opens. And then what? If you can't see the ground do you get you? No skydive is worth getting hurt, more over, no skydive is worth getting my tandem student hurt. I want to jump as much if not more than anyone on the plane but more importantly I want to tuck my son in to bed every night. The FAA is specific on cloud clearance there is no gray area in the reg. I'm just saying... I agree with Chuck Akers on this one Chuck Bryan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #12 April 19, 2010 Just to elaborate; ANY time you don't feel comfortable jumping, don't. Doesn't matter if it's clouds or any other reason. Move out the way and let everyone who wants to go. If the pilot is willing to give you a pass below the clouds, great, if not turn off your AAD (if you have one) and enjoy the flight down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #13 April 19, 2010 Quote J If the pilot is willing to give you a pass below the clouds, great, if not turn off your AAD (if you have one) and enjoy the flight down. Might have been a good idea for some of the old models if the pilot was really pushing the descent. Today's modern AAD's can ride the plane down just fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CMiller 1 #14 April 19, 2010 I've seen 3 student cypress 2s fire while descending in a plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #15 April 19, 2010 Quote Quote J If the pilot is willing to give you a pass below the clouds, great, if not turn off your AAD (if you have one) and enjoy the flight down. Might have been a good idea for some of the old models if the pilot was really pushing the descent. Today's modern AAD's can ride the plane down just fine. Also, I can't reach mine with my rig on it against my back. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LyraM45 0 #16 April 19, 2010 QuoteI've seen 3 student cypress 2s fire while descending in a plane. I rode a plane down on my first jump after moving to Cali a few months ago. I know some pilots really crank it down on the descent, so I backed up as much as I could and held my rig flush against the SIC seat in case my cypress2 fired. I don't know anybody that it has happened to, nor do I remember hearing any stories of it happening, but if they can fire on a HP turn for a swoop I don't see why not if the plane is nose down for a quick descent so I figured better safe than sorry. As for getting out in clouds-- the pilot shouldn't have the green light on if they don't have visuals. It's against FAR's and the law is there for a reason. It's not only for your safety but as well as the pilot who is minding his own business flying his plane somewhere underneath of the jump plane who may have not heard the call. If some guy flying a little piper and is filed VFR he may be flying underneath the cloud deck-- say the base is at 6,000ft and VFR underneath. You track out of that cloud and BAM. Lights out for everybody involved. I walked off of a dropzone in TX last year because of this issue. First DZ I ever walked off of and won't return. I didn't appreciate staff and people yelling in the door when I was first out and after looking down into solid CB (with holes all around it... TX summertime with few to scattered towering CB's that may float right over the dz but will quickly move with a go around) and was going to ask for a go around to wait for a hole on the other side of the cloud, which is what I was used to doing at the dropzones in FL I had jumped at for years before.... but fun jumpers don't have the luxury of getting a go around at this particular DZ. At the end of the day you are responsible for yourself. You make the decision to get out or not get out. If you're not comfortable with the way the DZ operates with variable clouds, then try another DZ if you have the luxury of having another option somewhat close. If not, then don't be afraid to ride the plane down. Don't worry about the assholes yelling from the back of the plane. You're doing the right thing by abiding the rules and regs-- they're there for a reason!Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 13 #17 April 19, 2010 QuoteThe pilot was wrong for being in the cloud in the first place. He/she was also wrong for turning on the green light, in affect giving permission for the jump. The jumpers yelling for people to exit were wrong. If your coach was planning on exiting while in the cloud, he/she was wrong. If the DZO allows the pilots to drop jumpers in clouds, he/she is wrong. If your S&TA (assuming you jump at a USPA DZ) allows jumpers to exit while in clouds, he/she is wrong. Seeing a pattern here? I recently heard that the FAA (in the U. S.) can (and has) issued personal citations to individual jumpers for violating cloud restrictions. These may carry a fine of up to several thousand dollars. This is not issued against the pilot, but against individual jumpers. The fine carries the force of Federal Law and can be enforced through seizure of personal financial funds. So, unless you're an undocumented alien or a packer, you may actually have something to lose. Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #18 April 19, 2010 Quote When you get in a situation like that and everyone back inside the plane is yelling "GO!", just step back out of the way and let them approach the door and make their own decisions. That way you're not holding them up and they can't get mad at you. And if they choose to jump anyway, then that's between them, the S&TA, and the FAA. A better way(and funnier), while everyone is yelling, put your hand up to the ear and keep saying "What, I can't hear you". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #19 April 19, 2010 QuoteSkydivers can't file and fly IRF flight plans for a skydive Not entirely true. Jumps are made above 17,999 feet which is IFR country only. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #20 April 19, 2010 I've seen this shit since the mid-1970s, where novices who have the nerve to act on their own judgment to watch after their own safety get shit from the up-jumpers, and sometimes from the DZO, too. My very first DZ (and DZO) was like that, and it ultimately drove me away from there and into the arms of other DZs. (I personally believe it at least contributed to the death of one novice there who I was friendly with; but that's another story.) It happens less today than in yesteryear, but it still happens. Yes, it's hard for a novice jumper, especially one who's young in years, to resist this kind of pressure. Bottom line: you have to be willing to accept the possible "stigma", and maybe even never be able to jump at that DZ again, in order to watch after your own safety. Dying young because you're unwilling to say "no" on your own behalf is a really dumb reason to miss out on middle age. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #21 April 19, 2010 Quotebut if they can fire on a HP turn for a swoop I don't see why not if the plane is nose down for a quick descent so I figured better safe than sorry. You don't usually find jump pilots in a nose down attitude below 1000 feet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hchunter614 0 #22 April 19, 2010 I never said I exit if I can't see the ground. If you read the post I was replying to (RustyOaks) it asked "How good of a scan for air traffic do most people do in clear air anyway? Does the cloud really change much?". That was the point I was addressing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #23 April 19, 2010 QuoteI've seen 3 student cypress 2s fire while descending in a plane. I guess that could certainly happen. The student Cypres has a slower rate for activating. The jump pilots are supposed to know those kind of things and keep the descent rates reasonable below 1000 feet. We use only "pro" settings on our gear, since an aggressive spiral can set off an AAD set for "student". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #24 April 19, 2010 spotting the jump and following the rules is fine - if they are shouting, stand back and tell them to go ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,356 #25 April 19, 2010 >if they are shouting, stand back and tell them to go We did that at Rantoul once (we were organizing and had a six way.) One TM was shouting "Look! I have a thousand jumps and I say it's OK to go! So GO!" Winsor (who was looking out the door) said "No, we're not going. What don't you get?" So we squeezed sideways to let the tandems slide by. They all exited into a pretty big cumulonimbus cloud. The rule at Rantoul is that if you don't get out you land with the plane, so we all sat down and fished out the seat belts. The pilot looked back and said "do you want another pass? We can take it to another jump run." We said "sure!" and we went around. We got out in the clear and did the jump. A few minutes later I saw the TM walking around soaking wet with a red face where the rain was hitting him. "So how'd it go?" I asked him. He didn't answer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites