Are we ever gonna learn?

[tkhayes 125]

I count 5 fatalities this year already related to canopy/winds/landing.

Are we ever gonna learn anything?

[shropshire 0]

Nope, not whilst it's still physically possible to hurt/get hurt.

People make mistakes/ errors of judgement in these as well as other things - We say that it will never happen to us but as someone put it most so well on this site ...

"You are not now nor will ever be good enough not to die in this sport".

Knowledge that this risk exists is not enough to entirely remove that risk.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[airtwardo 6]

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Knowledge that this risk exists is not enough to entirely remove that risk.

Awareness of the risk does nothing to lessen or remove it, you have to actively and constantly TAKE MEASURES to address it.

A two second lack of concentration...just may be longer than the 'lifetime' you have left to regret it.

The catch-22 of this sport is that there are certain patterns of repetition that can save you and others that can bite you.

We seem to forget just how dynamic & potentially dangerous ALL situations of the Skydive really are & sometimes fail to keep the ole hard drive running at full capacity until airspeed & altitude zero out.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[jimmytavino 16]

it might be best to never get tooo casual about skydiving.....

comfortable is one thing, and comfortable is good....

but i always try to keep a small dose of 'scared'... in my back pocket..

i find that it keeps me in line, keeps me on my toes. keeps my EYES open.. and prevents me from doing something impulsively..... that sorta stuff can one into trouble..fast...

Sometimes jumpers can become 'performers' and can tend to wanna accomplish certain more difficult and 'bravado-like' techniques.....
I'm not sure if they do it, to impress themselves, or to impress those on the dz,,, jumpers and whuffos alike,, who might happen to be 'spectating' that day....

i'm happy,,, inside my cocoon of an envelope , and don't feel the need to push ANYthing.....
especially close to the ground, or when IN traffic....

I try to stay predictable, fly the proper pattern, and NOT cut corners going from downwind to base, and base to final...
whenever possible, I try to do good strong VISIBLE 90 degree moves,, at each turn,, in my pattern..
Not very Flashy, but also....
Not very Smashy...in this way.. i ALways can manage to have a smile on my face, at the completion of each of my jumps....as i'm WALKING... back to the packing area...

jmy.....o[:-)

[liftedtitan 0]

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I count 5 fatalities this year already related to canopy/winds/landing.

Are we ever gonna learn anything?

whats with your avatar? skydiving injury? did you "learn"

Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt.

[JohnnyMarko 1]

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I count 5 fatalities this year already related to canopy/winds/landing.

Are we ever gonna learn anything?

whats with your avatar? skydiving injury? did you "learn"

...yikes

[popsjumper 2]

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I count 5 fatalities this year already related to canopy/winds/landing.

Are we ever gonna learn anything?

Not as long as egos continue to try to outfly asses.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[blkhwk91b 0]

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but i always try to keep a small dose of 'scared'... in my back pocket.

Says it all in my book.

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing, than a long life spent in a miserable way." - Alan Watts

[davelepka 4]

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whats with your avatar? skydiving injury? did you "learn"

Well, if he's got a string of those x-rays from different injuries, then I guess I could see your point. If he only has the one, you don't really have much of a point.

The whole post is lamenting the repetition of easily avoidable injuries under open, fully functioning canopies. I know he only states the 5 so far from this year, but I'm sure the dozens of them in years past also played a role in the creation of the post.

Even if TK did wangle himself into the ground one time, the lack of a repeat performance would indicate that he did indeed 'learn', which is unlike the growing crowd of people who were fully aware of the risks of high winds, turbulence, and heavy traffic, but proceeded to jump in them without concern, and paid the price for their avoidable mistake.

[tkhayes 125]

that was March of 2001 so yes, i guess you could say I learned - given that I am still here.....

[billeisele 122]

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I count 5 fatalities this year already related to canopy/winds/landing.

Are we ever gonna learn anything?

Not as long as egos continue to try to outfly asses.

...and ignorance exceeds experience.

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[Squeak 17]

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Nope, not whilst it's still physically possible to hurt/get hurt.

People make mistakes/ errors of judgement in these as well as other things - We say that it will never happen to us but as someone put it most so well on this site ...

"You are not now nor will ever be good enough not to die in this sport".

Knowledge that this risk exists is not enough to entirely remove that risk.

People are also buying Canopies that they don't need

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[danornan 64]

As long as skydivers feel that there is no penalty for swooping in the so called predictable landing areas, our brothers and sisters will continue to die. Most of what I read and hear is simply lip service.

Starting with the S&T people at each DZ, unless you are serious about training and ENFORCING the landing pattern rules, skydivers will continue to die, innocent bystanders about 1/2 the time.

The DZO's need to strictly enforce the landing pattern rules and quit allowing the "skygods" to do whatever they wish.

In my limited travels to other DZ's, the only one that seems to be serious about enforcing landing pattern rules is Perris Valley and not being there last week, I can't explain what happened.

Placing a swoop pond in the path of everyone walking back from a skydive is dangerous! Saying one thing to people boarding an airplane before a skydive and allowing anyone do their own thing after the fact is dangerous.

A lot of the problems stem from people afraid to land downwind. Learn how so you are not chasing a windsock. Be predictable and limit your excitement after the parachute opens when you are in the pattern. If you want to swop and do hook turns, do it where EVERYONE is expecting you to, or in my opinion, you should have to sit down for a long time!

The deaths under working parachutes are such a waste and so needless. Quite being inconsiderate and selfish with your fun!

Dano

[shropshire 0]

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Nope, not whilst it's still physically possible to hurt/get hurt.

People make mistakes/ errors of judgement in these as well as other things - We say that it will never happen to us but as someone put it most so well on this site ...

"You are not now nor will ever be good enough not to die in this sport".

Knowledge that this risk exists is not enough to entirely remove that risk.

People are also buying Canopies that they don't need

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Andy9o8 0]

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Nope, not whilst it's still physically possible to hurt/get hurt.

People make mistakes/ errors of judgement in these as well as other things - We say that it will never happen to us but as someone put it most so well on this site ...

"You are not now nor will ever be good enough not to die in this sport".

Knowledge that this risk exists is not enough to entirely remove that risk.

People are also buying Canopies that they don't need

Ambiguous. Please clarify.

[kallend 1,622]

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The DZO's need to strictly enforce the landing pattern rules and quit allowing the "skygods" to do whatever they wish.

When was the last time you know of a "skygod" (I'll take this as someone getting an invite to a serious bigway event) being axed for a pattern violation or poor tracking? Yet we see pattern violations and sucky tracking on most bigways, occasionally by some of the biggest names.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Some, myself included, need to learn the hard way. Some will not survive the process. This is an unfortunate and inevitable problem with most extreme sports.

I rarely worry about getting hurt or killed. I often worry about friends getting hurt or killed. I think this may be the case for many in this sport. There’s this feeling of invulnerability we (extreme athletes) have which allows us to do what we do. I believe it’s a flaw in our nature. It’s not a bad thing, just a flaw we must possess.

And then, there’s always the Stupid factor!!

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[davelepka 4]

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When was the last time you know of a "skygod" (I'll take this as someone getting an invite to a serious bigway event) being axed for a pattern violation or poor tracking?

There's no excuse for poor tracking, but there are 100 excuses for 'differences' in canopy flight, and this is part of the problem with enforcement, big way or ortherwise.

We're dealing with non-powered aircraft here, so there are no holding patterns or go-arounds possible. Everyone on a given load is opening within 45 or 60 seconds of each other, and everyone is on a non-stop flight to the DZ. You're going to have traffic no matter what you do.

Even if you try to assign sectors and landing orders to people, again you're dealing with non-powered craft, and sometimes their options are limtied. A longer or shorter snivel, a hard pull or PC hesitation can give or take an easy 500 to 800ft, and suddenly the jumper isn't where they expected to be. Chnages in winds, or a problem with a slider or toggle (stuck brake, sound familiar) can also 'adjust' the position of a jumper relative to where they were supposed to be.

So what are their choices? Land off is one, but few would be willing to bite that bullet when they can easily make the DZ, albiet in a different sector, or with an alternate pattern. So they 'choose their own adventure' and land on the DZ but alternate to their intended plan.

What do you do with this jumper? Yes, they went counter to the plan, but they had a hard pull and a stuck brake, and they couldn't make it to the pattern in their assigned sector. They didn't mean any harm, and didn't do it with malice, but they ended up where they ended up. Do you ax them from the big way they traveled for? Do you ground them all together?

That's the problem with enforcing canopy flight regulations, the variables that exist make having that strict of a plan close to impossible. People do have to make choices at the last minute, and youwould run out of jumpers if you had to bust every one of them every time it happens.

To be clear - none of this excuses stupidity. Swooping where swooping is not allowed. Flying where flying is not allowed, or just not paying attention in general. None of that is acceptable in any way, and some of those people do need to sit out for a while to get the point.

As far as the good-intentioned population as a whole goes, trying to adhere to strict regulation is not the answer. Finding some way to instill good judgement in people is. How to do that, and how to make it stick such that it endures the rush and focus of a skydive. to exist down close to the ground regardless of what happened in the previous 60 seconds is beyond me, but that's what needs to happen.

[Squeak 17]

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Nope, not whilst it's still physically possible to hurt/get hurt.

People make mistakes/ errors of judgement in these as well as other things - We say that it will never happen to us but as someone put it most so well on this site ...

"You are not now nor will ever be good enough not to die in this sport".

Knowledge that this risk exists is not enough to entirely remove that risk.

People are also buying Canopies that they don't need

Ambiguous. Please clarify.

there's a couple of people I care about buying or have bought Katanas to LEARN how to swoop on.
My personal opinion is that no one has any business being on such a HP canopy unless they can ALREADY swoop.,

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[toronto_bill 0]

I have always asked myself...."is it important enough to do a 'stunt' and risk injury"

I usually want to be on the next load...and I am not willing to risk that...

[yoink 321]

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As far as the good-intentioned population as a whole goes, trying to adhere to strict regulation is not the answer. Finding some way to instill good judgement in people is. How to do that, and how to make it stick such that it endures the rush and focus of a skydive. to exist down close to the ground regardless of what happened in the previous 60 seconds is beyond me, but that's what needs to happen.

We come back to the 'education' part then.

Students aren't allowed to freefall on their own without instruction and sign-off from a qualified instructor.
Even when qualified, there are regulatory check-points and a common sequence of progression as they learn to fly first with small groups, then with larger ones, then invitations to big-ways and so on.

No such structured learning exists for canopy flight. Any post-student instruction is purely optional and someone with very little canopy knowledge, experience or judgment can find themselves on a 15 or 20 way because they can fly a slot in freefall. No-one cares if they have the experience or skill to get to the ground safely after break-off.

As far as I'm aware, the only organisation doing deliberate 'official' canopy trianing is the BPA, with their CP1, CP2 progression system, but even then, this is targeted soley on learning to swoop - not about instilling judgement and awareness when flying in busy traffic, and that's what's missing as a general rule.

[hchunter614 0]

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Some, myself included, need to learn the hard way.

I rarely worry about getting hurt or killed.

I hope you don't kill someone else trying to "learn the hard way". Seems like you're only concerned with yourself not your fellow jumpers that may be in the air with you.

[ridestrong 1]

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Some, myself included, need to learn the hard way.

I rarely worry about getting hurt or killed.

I hope you don't kill someone else trying to "learn the hard way". Seems like you're only concerned with yourself not your fellow jumpers that may be in the air with you.

That's quite the general assumption...

--------------------

On topic:

Our dz has started strictly enforcing landing patter to follow the first person down (who is to land with the 'arrow'). Not following the pattern will get you one warning and then grounded. There is an exception for swoopers coming in over the swooping pond which is well away from the general landing area.

As for winds, unfortunately they are often times unpredictable and sometimes can't be avoided. DZO's should be shutting down ops when winds are too high or gusting until conditions improve.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[emmiwy 0]

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I count 5 fatalities this year already related to canopy/winds/landing.

Are we ever gonna learn anything?

I also want to say that it is mentality/attitude/complacency. This idea has come up many times already I'm sure. For me it just takes an experienced jumper to put me in my place when I am not rigorous enough in terms of how I approach my own safety with this sport. Whether it is a misrouted chest strap or not wearing my helmet on take-off; things that I experienced but am lucky enough to still have my life to speak of but enough to illustrate our own mortality and that only we are in control of our own lives...I'd rather be a nerd with safety than be cocky/complacent about rules that keep us safe in the sky [and were invented for a reason].

[timmyfitz 0]

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I count 5 fatalities this year already related to canopy/winds/landing.

Are we ever gonna learn anything?

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whats with your avatar? skydiving injury? did you "learn"

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that was March of 2001 so yes, i guess you could say I learned - given that I am still here.....

Did you not know better before your accident? With about 20 years in the sport in 2001 my guess would be that you had seen a few landing accidents but somehow you had one.

I guess that answers the question...."Are we ever going to learn anything?" Some people learn by example, some learn after they screw up. Nothing new.