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AirborneDaddy

question on packing reserves

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A riddle that came up during the last CSPA Rigger A Course:

"What is the difference between a thug and a diplomat?"

"A diplomat can tell you to go to hell and be glad to begin your journey."

For example, if a rigger's seal is found at the scene of an accident, and he gets hauled into court ... When the prosecuting attorney asks "Why did you do this?"
and he replies "page 17 in the Vector manual.... page 47 in the Raven manual ... page 72 in the Cypres manual ..."
The prosecuting attorney will soon tire of that line of questioning and gladly run off to file suits against deep-pocket corporations like "The Uninsured Relative Workshop" etc.

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That is all true, but it doesn't change the fact that there is not an FAR that requires a rigger to have the manual(s), have it open, or have it open to the correct page. There should be, but there isn't.

A DPRE requiring the manual to be open does not mean that there is an FAR requiring it. A lot of very good reasons have been put forth for having the manual, but no FAR's.

By the same token, there is not an FAR requiring the rigger to be sober when packing. There should be, but there isn't.

Fact: There is not an FAR requiring a rigger to have the manual.

Derek

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Fact: There is not an FAR requiring a rigger to have the manual.

Derek






Flaming starts here.............

Derek,
You are starting to show your ignorance here.

Fact--it is in black and white... 65.119 says you will comply with both the procedures of both the FAA and the manufacturer.

The TSO requires a copy of the instructions to be used...period

Also all manufacturers that I have called require the instructions to be used..

Does not matter..pick one .. not using the instructions in either case is a violation of 65.119
So what about that do you not understand!!!!!!!!

An image of a rock comes to mind!!!!!!!!!>:(

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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I don't think Derek needs me to defend him, so I'm here on my own account.

The TSO requires some, but not all, instructions to be provided to the user. Oddly, the installation instructions, which the FAA recognizes are important for installation, are not among those required to be provided to the user.

In the FAA's usual meaning, "user" would be "operator". For us, that means skydiver/owner, not rigger. Instructions are provided to the purchasers of equipment, not riggers. Otherwise, you owe me copies of all the Icarus manuals.;)

In any case, the TSO is a manufacturing QC document which imposes requirements on the manufacturer. The TSO is silent on the obligations of the user.

I can see where manufacturers would want you to follow the instructions; you are right when you say the FARs require us to follow the instructions. However, the FARs are silent on the question of how available the written instructions should be.

Mark

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The TSO requires some, but not all, instructions to be provided to the user. Oddly, the installation instructions, which the FAA recognizes are important for installation, are not among those required to be provided to the user.



Mark,

The TSO requires that the instructions be provided for installation and continued airworthiness (use).

With a certificated canopy and H/C that would be at the inspection and repack cycles.

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In the FAA's usual meaning, "user" would be "operator". For us, that means skydiver/owner, not rigger.



Again, refer to the part for "continued airworthiness',
that would be a rigger doing that not the owner unless the owner just so happens to be a rigger.

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Instructions are provided to the purchasers of equipment, not riggers. Otherwise, you owe me copies of all the Icarus manuals.;)



Those canopies would be non-certificated, so the TSO paragraph does not apply. ;)

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However, the FARs are silent on the question of how available the written instructions should be.



I agree to some extent. But with the controlled copy( not available to everyone) of the oral and practical rigger exam that I have here, the Performance Standard states of what and how the rigger is to perform his or her duties.

There is also a Given as to what is to be used.
And you guessed it... the manufacturers instructions!

Like RiggerRob stated earlier, the enviroment of using the instructions just because you passed the test and have a rigger's certificate, should not go away.

Anyway, how's the Juki doing !!!!

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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Anyway, how's the Juki doing !!!!



Just great! Thanks!

(For those of you wondering, MEL provided a chipset that allows my electronic bartacker to reproduce most of the patterns in common use in the industry. The standard chipset is ok for most repairs, but now I get to try for that little bit extra that's the difference between merely adequate and factory standard.)

Mark

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For example, if a rigger's seal is found at the scene of an accident, and he gets hauled into court ... When the prosecuting attorney asks "Why did you do this?"
and he replies "page 17 in the Vector manual.... page 47 in the Raven manual ... page 72 in the Cypres manual ..."
The prosecuting attorney will soon tire of that line of questioning and gladly run off to file suits against deep-pocket corporations like "The Uninsured Relative Workshop" etc.




That just shows that the rigger in question "understands the current manufacturer's instructions for the operation involved".

They are not going to allow you to read from the manual while on the stand and if you can quote chapter and verse while being questioned in court you should be able to do it while packing.

And that still doesn't not change the fact that it is not required in FAR's.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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The TSO requires that the instructions be provided for installation and continued airworthiness (use).

With a certificated canopy and H/C that would be at the inspection and repack cycles.



Attached is a complete copy of TSO-C23d. Where does it say anything about a rigger using a copy of anything?
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Attached is a complete copy of TSO-C23d. Where does it say anything about a rigger using a copy of anything?





That would be Section C- Paragraph (2).....

(2) The manufacturer must furnish to the user of the article one copy of the data and information specified in paragraphs c(l)(ii) and c(l)(v). This data and information is necessary for proper installation and use and for continued airworthiness of the product or article.

Again..........


MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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I agree to some extent. But with the controlled copy( not available to everyone) of the oral and practical rigger exam that I have here, the Performance Standard states of what and how the rigger is to perform his or her duties.

MEL



Not true! The parachute rigger practical test standards are available to anyone!
-The FAA has developed this practical test book as a standard to be used by FAA inspectors and DPREs when conducting parachute rigger practical test. Instructors are expected to use this book when preparing applicants for the practical test. "Applicants should be familiar with this book and refer to these standards during their training".
I have 3 copies of this book here for whoever is interested or you can download it from the regulatory support division, AFS-600, web site at http://afs600.faa.gov.

Now, besides all this talking, common sense has prevailed and it just shows that whatever title or position you have, educate people is the best path!
All my rigging tests were done with Dave Dewolf. He never imposed me anything about rigging or laws, instead he educated me and showed me the right thing.
It just demonstrate to me that there are 2 kind of people: Liars and believers
I'm a believer, but the only difference is that I can make my own decision if it's true or not and have the balls to live with!
I'm very busy at my rigging loft working 7 days a week. I don't have the time to spend on my computer, so feel free to continue debating or imposing things that really doesn't make any difference.

Cheers,
Gus Marinho
Rigging Solutions
Gus Marinho

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I agree to some extent. But with the controlled copy( not available to everyone) of the oral and practical rigger exam that I have here, the Performance Standard states of what and how the rigger is to perform his or her duties.

MEL


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Not true! The parachute rigger practical test standards are available to anyone!



Very True!!

The Pratical test standards are available to everyone, but the Oral and Pratical Test is NOT.
See Below...

This test is the property of the United States Government and is not to be copied or reproduced
without special permission from the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration.


CONTROLLED ITEM (Test Material)

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Now, besides all this talking, common sense has prevailed and it just shows that whatever title or position you have, educate people is the best path!
All my rigging tests were done with Dave Dewolf. He never imposed me anything about rigging or laws, instead he educated me and showed me the right thing.



Hopefully education is taking place from this.


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It just demonstrate to me that there are 2 kind of people: Liars and believers
I'm a believer, but the only difference is that I can make my own decision if it's true or not and have the balls to live with!


So who is the Liar?

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I'm very busy at my rigging loft working 7 days a week. I don't have the time to spend on my computer, so feel free to continue debating or imposing things that really doesn't make any difference.




I work seven days a week in my shop also. But I still take the time to try to help people understand things that they maybe should understand better.


MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service



And I do not know why the text is coming out in bold!
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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Well all this is very amusing. When I'm at the DZ and get asked to pack a reserve, and I don't have my stuff, I will pack it if I am familier with and understand all of the instuctions. Then later when I go to court, I WILL have them on hand to defend the way I worked on it.

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(2) The manufacturer must furnish to the user of the article one copy of the data and information specified in paragraphs c(l)(ii) and c(l)(v). This data and information is necessary for proper installation and use and for continued airworthiness of the product or article.



That does not say that the rigger must have the manual or use it when packing the reserve. It does say that the manufacturer must supply the following information to the user:

(ii) Operating instructions and limitations, to include donning, retention, adjustment, and deployment.

(v) Detailed maintenance instructions, including specific guidance on the limits of wear and damage permissible to webbing material that would warrant replacement.

That doesn't even include reserve packing instructions. You are reading more into that than what is there.

You still have not quoted an FAR that says the rigger must have the manual to pack the reserve.

Derek

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Attached is a complete copy of TSO-C23d. Where does it say anything about a rigger using a copy of anything?





That would be Section C- Paragraph (2).....

(2) The manufacturer must furnish to the user of the article one copy of the data and information specified in paragraphs c(l)(ii) and c(l)(v). This data and information is necessary for proper installation and use and for continued airworthiness of the product or article.

Again..........


MEL



I'm not a rigger, but I have very good reading skills. ;)

The "data and information" are contained in the manual. They are not the manual. If the data and information are present a repack time, it does not matter, at least according to the FARs and TSO standards that have been quoted in this thread, if that information is present via an open manual, or present via rigger understanding and memorization.

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I think, I'd rather have the instructions with me while doing an I&R. Might just save my ass from being dragged into court in the first place. Besides, I wasn't blessed with a photographic memory. If only, the FAA had just used the word 'manual'... but, that's too easy.


Chuck

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Attached is a complete copy of TSO-C23d. Where does it say anything about a rigger using a copy of anything?





That would be Section C- Paragraph (2).....

(2) The manufacturer must furnish to the USER of the article one copy of the data and information specified in paragraphs c(l)(ii) and c(l)(v). This data and information is necessary for proper installation and use and for continued airworthiness of the product or article.

Again..........


MEL



You keep leaving out the main word. USER The rigger is not the user.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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