Closet Grammarians, I Have a Question for You

[Jumpervint 0]

I know we have quite a few people here who get their knickers in a twist over your and yore and you're and they're and their and etc. Here's a question about infinitives and gerunds as the object of a verb. Anyone have an answer?

I quote my daughter, trying to teach Japanese students English:

"Why is it that we can say "I like painting" or "I like to paint," but we can only say "I enjoy painting" and not "I enjoy to paint?" Why do we say "I decided to buy a car" and not "I decided buying a car?" Is there any rule for which verbs can be paired with to~ and ~ing and which ones can only be used with one or the other? "

Any takers???


Vint

. . . . .
"Make it hard again." Doc Ed

“A person needs a little madness, or else they never dare cut the rope and be free” Nikos Kazantzakis

[AggieDave 6]

I'll take a shot at the dragon!

With out pondering like this, we would never get to enjoy full quality "engrish!"

http://www.engrish.com/

The lead picture right now is a 100% relevant example!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[The_Don 0]

I'll say this.

English is hard.

home, comb.

Yep. It makes no sense at all.

I am NOT being loud.
I'm being enthusiastic!

[headoverheels 291]

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"Why is it that we can say "I like painting" or "I like to paint," but we can only say "I enjoy painting" and not "I enjoy to paint?"

Valley girls can say

" I, like, paint!"

[quade 3]

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"Why is it that we can say "I like painting" or "I like to paint," but we can only say "I enjoy painting" and not "I enjoy to paint?"

While I don't have a hard and fast rule, I can tell you that the sentences; "I like painting" and "I like to paint," don't actually mean exactly the same thing. Oh sure they seem like they do and functionally 99.9% of english speaking people might say they do, but they don't. It's a very subtle thing.

Google "Gerund" or possibly try to decipher the Wikipedia page.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Cari 0]

English is hard. I took Japanese in college and they don't have all the crazy rules we have. I couldn't even imagine trying to teach English to Japanese kids because there are so many differences just in sentence structure alone, not to mention definitions of words, and all of the lovely grammatical rules that we have that make no real sense.

[GreyLake 0]

Wow. This was hard, and the best I could come up with I found here:

http://www.sabri.org/Grammar/Consider-L12.htm

I don't know that I agree with the explantion provided, however, and it may be that the "mistake" is simply nonstandard use of the language.

Phone numbers to grammar hotlines, in case the above fails to satisfy:

http://www.tcc.edu/students/resources/writcent/gh/hotlinol.htm

Good luck!

Let's go to candy mountain.

[quade 3]

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Wow. This was hard, and the best I could come up with I found here:

http://www.sabri.org/Grammar/Consider-L12.htm

I don't know that I agree with the explantion provided.

That's actually the best written explanation I think I've ever seen.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ghost47 18]

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Wow. This was hard, and the best I could come up with I found here:

http://www.sabri.org/...mar/Consider-L12.htm

I don't know that I agree with the explantion provided, however, and it may be that the "mistake" is simply nonstandard use of the language.

I don't know if that explanation works for non-English speakers though. For us, of course we know that "I enjoy it" is right, and "I enjoy to do it" is wrong, but that both "I like it" and "I like to do it" is right. But how do you explain to a non-native speaker which verbs take gerunds AND infinitives, and which just one?

If there's an answer for that, I'd love to hear it too. Thus far, I can't think of a good distinction -- it seems like one of those things you just know from speaking the language natively.

[stevebabin 0]

In English:
One who sows seeds-Sower
The one who is sewing-Sewer
Where sewage goes-Sewer.

Yes...English is hard.

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[PeregrineFalcon 0]

English teacher here. I haven't looked at any of the links provided in the answers to your post, so I don't know if this has already been answered.

You kind of answered it yourself by distinguishing between a gerund and an infinitive verb.

"I like boxing."

The word "boxing in that sentence is a gerund. Which means that it's not a verb. It's actually a noun. A gerund is a word that's normally used as a verb and becomes a noun in sentences like this.

Boxing is a sport. It's a noun. While in the ring, a boxer is boxing. That's a verb. We don't say, "To box is a sport" because that would make a verb the subject of a sentence.

"I like painting." This may be splitting hairs here, but I believe "painting in this sentence not to be gerund but rather an intransitive verb. An intransitive verb is one that is complete in a sentence like that and does not need a direct object. One can argue whether it's a gerund or an intransitive verb and both sides can prove that they're right depending on the thought of the speaker. Either way, though, it answers your question.

Now, how does one convey this information to a person who has not grown up with the English language? It's hard as hell. I teach ESL myself. At times I'm able to answer these questions to the kids' satisfaction. Every once in a while, though, I just have to tell them that English is a complicated language. When they ask why, I explain how it's derivative of so many other languages; German, Latin, Greek, etc. The rules get thrown out the window as a result. They end up understanding that.

Note: I don't feel like going back and proofreading this post, so if some anal asshole cares to call me on any mistakes I made and say I'm not a teacher (it's happened before) just know that I ain't agonna care none.

[Cari 0]

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English teacher here. I haven't looked at any of the links provided in the answers to your post, so I don't know if this has already been answered.

You kind of answered it yourself by distinguishing between a gerund and an infinitive verb.

"I like boxing."

The word "boxing in that sentence is a gerund. Which means that it's not a verb. It's actually a noun. A gerund is a word that's normally used as a verb and becomes a noun in sentences like this.

Boxing is a sport. It's a noun. While in the ring, a boxer is boxing. That's a verb. We don't say, "To box is a sport" because that would make a verb the subject of a sentence.

"I like painting." This may be splitting hairs here, but I believe "painting in this sentence not to be gerund but rather an intransitive verb. An intransitive verb is one that is complete in a sentence like that and does not need a direct object. One can argue whether it's a gerund or an intransitive verb and both sides can prove that they're right depending on the thought of the speaker. Either way, though, it answers your question.

Now, how does one convey this information to a person who has not grown up with the English language? It's hard as hell. I teach ESL myself. At times I'm able to answer these questions to the kids' satisfaction. Every once in a while, though, I just have to tell them that English is a complicated language. When they ask why, I explain how it's derivative of so many other languages; German, Latin, Greek, etc. The rules get thrown out the window as a result. They end up understanding that.

Note: I don't feel like going back and proofreading this post, so if some anal asshole cares to call me on any mistakes I made and say I'm not a teacher (it's happened before) just know that I ain't agonna care none.

Nerd.

[PeregrineFalcon 0]

Yeah, I know. But nerds turn you on.

How YOU doin'?

[Cari 0]

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Yeah, I know. But nerds turn you on.

How YOU doin'?

I actually have a shirt that says, "Talk nerdy to me."

[GreyLake 0]

The explanation is simply that English has standard and nonstandard use, and nonstandard use is generally considered incorrect. . . Until mistakes becomes standard, in which case they become correct, and that is how the language evolves.

Examples of "nonstandard use" of English include split infinitives and ending a sentence on a preposition. Both are generally regarded as mistakes, and most certainly the split infinitive remains widely despised. However, infinitives are occasionally split in literature so as to shake things up, to make things interesting--which is fine when you've got skill enough to wield the poetic license that would dismiss you from such a crime. Similarly, prepositions at the end of sentences grow increasingly common.

I say if it's clever, keep it. . . But language learners will have a way to go before they can play with the language, so for them standard usage must prevail. To become familiar with the written language, a student does best to read it (especially newspapers, certain magazines, and credible literature). It's unfortunate, but true.

Let's go to candy mountain.

[GreyLake 0]

I thought about that, but the infinitive "to paint" should also be able to serve as the object of the transitive verb "enjoy," just as it serves as the object for the transitive verb "like," which is why we can say "I like to paint."

. . . (I think)!

Let's go to candy mountain.

[ghost47 18]

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The explanation is simply that English has standard and nonstandard use, and nonstandard use is generally considered incorrect. . . Until mistakes becomes standard, in which case they become correct, and that is how the language evolves.

This is true, but there are certain rules of thumb that we can give that more or less hold true. For example, when to say biggest versus most big (or importantest versus most important). While not universally true, usually adjectives of three syllables or more take more / most, and adjectives of one or two syllables take -er and -est.

Or whether the word "any" takes plural (if the object is uncertain -- do you have any cups?) or singular (if the object is certain -- any cup will do).

In contrast, there seems to be no rule of thumb for which verbs take gerunds and infinitives, and which don't, just that we know some do and we know some don't.

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Examples of "nonstandard use" of English include split infinitives and ending a sentence on a preposition. Both are generally regarded as mistakes, and most certainly the split infinitive remains widely despised.

These are also often mistakenly regarded as mistakes, as most style manuals (AFAIK) don't say there's anything wrong with split infinitives or ending sentences with prepositions.

Of course "right" and "wrong" with language is perception, so just as things may become "right" (as you note) when enough people use it, so do things become "wrong" when enough people think it is.

[GreyLake 0]

It's a good explanation, but I think it's important that we pay attention especially to these lines (and the specific words I've made bold):

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So when you are in doubt as to whether to use a gerund or an infinitive, ask yourself if it is "it" or "to do it." If you can use "it," a gerund will be correct. If you must use "to do it," an infinitive should be your choice.

In the case of of "I enjoy painting," you can use painting. (Yes, I can also "enjoy to paint," but since I can "enjoy painting," I use the first).

On the contrary, in the case of "I decide to paint," I must "decide to do" something. I cannot "decide painting."

(I think).

Let's go to candy mountain.

[GreyLake 0]

I brought up those two examples specifically because it depends on who you ask! Some will say they're fine, others, not so much. The "Grammar Bible" says the split infinitive is a mistake (though acknowledges the occasional crafty use of them), and the NYTimes style guide says they're acceptable, but to avoid them.

As for prepostions at the end of sentences: you're right. They're generally accepted, but there are many people who still believe that the structure is incorrect, and so you have to point them to the authoratative grammarians, whoever they are.

Let's go to candy mountain.

[Babi 0]

This is interesting for me, because English is not my native language. I had to learn it the hard way, in school in later through practice.
I found that English language has so many exceptions that the best way is just to learn it the correct way. The trouble is that so many English speaking people do not speak correct English and we learn from them.

If you think English is difficult, try learning Slovene. We have a dual (singlular, duel and plural), we have declinations which cause the end of the word to change, inclusive of names, everything that in English is "it" has a gender in my language.

So, be lucky you speak English. It is a very beautiful language and I love it.

[Jumpervint 0]

But by adding the 'ing' to paint, you either form a gerund, which acts like a noun, or you're into the progressive forms of the verb (present or past) which demand the use of a helping /auxiliary verb, a form of to be. So how is it then that a transitive verb can be the object of a transitive verb? I'd say "I like painting" shows the gerund form of the verb, and acts like a noun.

I too teach ESL, which is why my daughter asked me the question. She thinks I know everything about grammar. I just act like i do. When I don't know, I find out about it here in the Bonfire.

Vint

. . . . .
"Make it hard again." Doc Ed

“A person needs a little madness, or else they never dare cut the rope and be free” Nikos Kazantzakis

[PeregrineFalcon 0]

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But by adding the 'ing' to paint, you either form a gerund, which acts like a noun, or you're into the progressive forms of the verb (present or past) which demand the use of a helping /auxiliary verb, a form of to be. So how is it then that a transitive verb can be the object of a transitive verb? I'd say "I like painting" shows the gerund form of the verb, and acts like a noun.

I too teach ESL, which is why my daughter asked me the question. She thinks I know everything about grammar. I just act like i do. When I don't know, I find out about it here in the Bonfire.

Vint

Did I say "transitive verb"? I thought I said "instransitive." Now I have to go back and look. In any case, you make a good point about it being a gerund there.

Edit to add: Yeah, I said "intransitive" but I totally see your point.

[Squeak 17]

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English teacher here. I haven't looked at any of the links provided in the answers to your post, so I don't know if this has already been answered.

You kind of answered it yourself by distinguishing between a gerund and an infinitive verb.

"I like boxing."

The word "boxing in that sentence is a gerund. Which means that it's not a verb. It's actually a noun. A gerund is a word that's normally used as a verb and becomes a noun in sentences like this. .

OK What if you use that same sentence but boxing is now the act of putting things into a box? (like boxing groceries)

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[PeregrineFalcon 0]

"...to boldly go where no man has gone before."