front riser bucking on a cobalt 135

[vdschoor 0]

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i wouldnt mind putting an aff student on a stilletto, loaded lightly that is. if it wasnt for the possibility of spinning line twists.

Mark, the Stiletto, even if loaded lightly is a high performance wing...
Someone here in NorCal three years ago bought a ST 190 cause it was a Stiletto.. but it was big enough, so it was not as dangerous.. he was wrong.. and unfortunately he is not with us anymore. Do a search on Paul Cousins on here..

Students / low experience jumpers have no business on Stilettos..

Don't take this personal, it's just my opinion.. but I would really reconsider putting a student on a Stiletto. If you had said Sabre2.. yes.. but not a Stiletto..

[TaylorC 0]

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maybe you have hit the ground hard a few to many times

Thats good. But actually I haven't hit the ground hard at all. I have, on the other hand watched many. many folks (maybe like yourself) hit the ground all kinds of ways, resulting in all sorts of damage.

Maybe the real answer is that you haven't hit the ground hard enough (yet).

For the record, I do have a need to be a smartass, It's what I do. Say and do shit that makes sense, and I'll have nothing to say.

being a smart ass makes me want to ignore you cause of that. And yes i have hit the ground hard but thankfully it was on a sandbar instead of regular landing area.

Everyone makes mistakes i have seen the fatality reports of jumpers with 2000+ jumps making that low turn to avoid obstacles and dying it is not only the low time jumpers that make this mistake you could make this mistake to. Telling someone not to do something normally makes them want to do it even more(as i said earlier). You don't know me and i don't know you and i am not here to piss anyone off i just wanted some simple fucking advice that is all.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I dont have any problem putting aff students under full elliptical canopies. Why is it because of an ellipse it is "dangerous"?

Have you ever done that? What canopies, have you or would you use?

Dave

[AddFuelToFire]A Spectre is more elliptical than a Velocity.[/AddFuelToFire]

(More truncated, too.)

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[Hooknswoop 19]

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is the cobalt as elliptical as the stiletto?

They are very similar.

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i wouldnt mind putting an aff student on a stilletto, loaded lightly that is. if it wasnt for the possibility of spinning line twists.

And the speed it generates in a dive? And the sensitivity in the flare?

A stiletto hasn't gotten any lower in performance than when it was first introduced. Just because there are higher performance canopies out now does nothing to change the performance of a Stiletto (or Cobalt). They are not student canopies. PD agrees, Atair does not.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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A Spectre is more elliptical than a Velocity.

With a much lower aspect ratio.

Derek

[pilotdave 0]

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Telling someone not to do something normally makes them want to do it even more

Just my opinion, but I don't think skydiving is a very good sport for people like that. When someone with over 20X my number of jumps that has been in the sport 10X longer than me tells me something is a bad idea, I tend to listen, and so do a lot of other people.

This isn't a good sport for people that will do anything to prove others wrong. You'll more likely prove them right.

Dave

[davelepka 4]

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This isn't a good sport for people that will do anything to prove others wrong. You'll more likely prove them right

Don't worry, I just came from the video forum, and according to his thread there, he'll be flying a camera, so we'll have whatever happens on video.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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[AddFuelToFire]A Spectre is more elliptical than a Velocity.[/AddFuelToFire]

With a much lower aspect ratio.

Derek

Among other significant differences. Point is there are many factors other than the ellipticity that contribute to the canopy's flight characteristics.

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[TaylorC 0]

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This isn't a good sport for people that will do anything to prove others wrong. You'll more likely prove them right

Don't worry, I just came from the video forum, and according to his thread there, he'll be flying a camera, so we'll have whatever happens on video.

you know you really are starting to piss me off. From what i gather your one of those self proclaimed skygods. I am asking questions i don't see what the problem is there. Quit acting like you know me. You have seen people bite it hard and i have seen a few people eat some serious chow also. I realize what i am getting myself into and i accept the consequences so i don't see what the big deal you are having with me. I never flamed you once and you come here doing that to me and you keep doing that to me. Do you have anything better to do than to put down new skydivers?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Among other significant differences. Point is there are many factors other than the ellipticity that contribute to the canopy's flight characteristics.

Right, but the bottom line is canopies like the Stiletto, Crossfire, and Cobalt are not for students or beginners. The advent of crossbraced canopies has not changed the performance of these canopies.

Derek

[davelepka 4]

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Do you have anything better to do than to put down new skydivers?

You call it putting down, I call it providing accurate and valuable advice.

Again, if you made choices that made sense, I'd have nothing to say. To that end, thank you for providing me a forum in which to speak, my hat is off to you.

[beowulf 1]

Hey man chill out. All everyone here is trying to tell you is that you are not really stacking the odds in your favor.

[marks 0]

taylor

if your going to insist on jumping that canopy, let me invite you out to skydive the farm on the weekend of january 28th. we can help you along and show you some things that might help keep you and others safe.

about the stilletto. dont get me wrong, i wont put a student under a stiletto, first and formost because of the possibility of spinning line twist. although, if it didnt have that possibility it probably wouldnt have the other cherecteristics that make it not good for students. so thins would be my point.

but if it came to a 95 lb girl and a manta 288 and a 200 sq ft stilleto, minus the possibility of spinning line twist, i would most certainly., i guess we would call this canopy somethingmore like a sabre-sabre2 or a safire-sifire2.

[LawnDart21 0]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1795708;search_string=%26quot%3Bi%20can%20handle%20it%26quot%3B;#1795708

Read please.

(If someone can make a better clicky, by all means go for it.....lol.)

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I realize what i am getting myself into and i accept the consequences so i don't see what the big deal you are having with me.

I think Dave's point was/is, that at 180 jumps, no, you don't know what your getting yourself into, because despite all your reading and research, you really do not have a clue what that canopy at that wingloading is capable of.

As for accepting the consequences, people are getting riled up w/you because your being selfish. Your placing your need to downsize over the better good of our sport. If you hook it in and injure or kill yourself or someone else, it affects all of us. No one wants to see you get hurt, and no one wants you pissing on our (collectively, including you) sport by doing things that the majority of the jumpers on this board consider reckless.

You may have come here looking only for advice, but its our duty to each other to call "BULLSHIT" whenever we see/read something that isnt right, your not the first to hear all this, and wont be the last. Dont take it personal, its only cause people care.

Lastly, I'd be remiss if I didnt mention the fact your canopy has 3 times as many jumps as you do.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[nicknitro71 0]

By the way the Cobalt has one of the highest AR of all canopies, 2.83 vs the 2.68 of the Velocity and 2.78 of the VX. I don't undestand why a student would need a very high AR elliptical even if it's lightly loaded

Memento Audere Semper

903

[TaylorC 0]

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taylor

if your going to insist on jumping that canopy, let me invite you out to skydive the farm on the weekend of january 28th. we can help you along and show you some things that might help keep you and others safe.

about the stilletto. dont get me wrong, i wont put a student under a stiletto, first and formost because of the possibility of spinning line twist. although, if it didnt have that possibility it probably wouldnt have the other cherecteristics that make it not good for students. so thins would be my point.

but if it came to a 95 lb girl and a manta 288 and a 200 sq ft stilleto, minus the possibility of spinning line twist, i would most certainly., i guess we would call this canopy somethingmore like a sabre-sabre2 or a safire-sifire2.

i am currently in university and don't have the funds to travel around a lot .

Everyone who i talked to in person who has seen my skills said i would be perfectly fine under this canopy and would have no problems with it.

I am really sorry if i came off to strong there and i don't want to offend anyone i just think a lot of people jump to conclusions without knowing each individual situation. I am not cocky or anything my instructors and coaches deemed me able to fly this 135 and that is what i am doing. So your saying that people who actually know me and know what i can do and have 1000's of skydives are completly wrong?

I am not hooking it in or anything like that. I did expierment with that on my 170 for a bit but i really don't want to do that on my cobalt. I am practicing for those emergency procedures where i have to avoid an object or someone else flying. I want to learn and excel at canopy flying.

[marks 0]

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By the way the Cobalt has one of the highest AR of all canopies,

i dont think you have mesured the jvx yet

either have i, but im willing to bet it is higher.

[popeyefireman 0]

It seems to me after following this post for some time, and reading the photography forum post, the everything is going in one ear and out the other. Arrogance and cockyness are different things, but can have that same outcome in skydiving (or any dangerous situation) and that out come can be serious injury and/or death.

No I am not a AFF instructor or a 10,000 jump wonder, but every time I put on my rig it is to have fun. If you ask me sitting in a wheel chair because I destroyed my spine and watching everyone else jump is not fun. You can have just as much fun under a more suitable canopy and walk away after a bad landing as you can under a full elliptical.

When you go to the dropzone next time or when you come to AZ go to manifest or to AZTC or any of the pro swoopers there and say these words to them.

"Hi, my name is Taylor I have 180 jumps on a A lic and fly a cobalt 135 at 1.4 WL and now I want to jump a camera."

See what these "self proclaimed skygods say to that"

That’s just my two cents

"I Yam what I Yam"

I am not afriad to die, only to die without living.

[bob.dino 0]

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I dont have any problem putting aff students under full elliptical canopies. Why is it because of an ellipse it is "dangerous"?

Have you ever done that? What canopies, have you or would you use?

Dave

safire. mainly.

Until a couple of weeks ago, my main canopy was a Spectre 190. I've also put 20-30 jumps on a semi-elliptical Safire2 170. I've just switched to a fully-elliptical Samurai 170.

The difference between a Safire2 and a Samurai at the same loading is like night and day. Putting a student under a Sam would be bloody stupid; I doubt I'd be here if I'd started jumping a fully-elliptical canopy straight off student status.

At our DZ, many jumpers purchase Safire2s as their first canopy. That's when they have 20-30 jumps, and it seems to work just fine at an appropriate loading.

I think you do need to differentiate between Safire2/Sabre2/Pilot, all of which are tapered to some degree, and the fully-elliptical Sam/XF2/Stiletto. Very different canopies.

[TaylorC 0]

i am trying to find what i want to do in skydiving and i don't see what is truly wrong with that. I will admit i am bit arrogant but i am far from cocky in skydiving. I just want to find what i really want to do in skydiving and i really like canopy flight which i have more jumps into than anything else and i just tried camera for the first time last weekend and was wanting to know some info on it.

[marks 0]

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Putting a student under a Sam would be bloody stupid;

i dont know anything about the samuri either, nor did i say anything about it.

[AggieDave 6]

The advice people are trying to give you is pretty sound and proven advice. If you didn't listen to them, you won't listen to me for advice, but I want you to remember something for me. If you make it to 1000 jumps come back and re-read this thread and see if you still agree with your opinion or if you feel very very embarressed.


I say that since I had a very similar attitude and I did a lot of growing up in the sport over the past few years, if only I would have listened to everyone elses advice I would be a much better swooper now then I am. I would have learned the fundimentals of accuracy and patterns on a more appropiate canopy as well as the fundimentals of high-performance approaches on a slower/more appropiate canopy (like a Sabre2). That would have helped me learn much faster and would have kept me from spending the last 2 years re-learning what canopy flight is about.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,391]

> i am trying to find what i want to do in skydiving and i don't see what is
>truly wrong with that.

There is nothing wrong with that. You asked here, and now people are giving you their opinions. Nothing wrong with that either. If advice bugs you, do not post here or read this forum.

But you seem to not understand why people are 'hassling' you. An analogy, if you will -

Imagine you have a friend who has just gotten his driver's license. He also likes to drink. You tell him the two don't mix, and he shouldn't drink and drive. "Hey, leave me alone!" he complains. "It's driving. It's not like it's rocket science. And I only had five beers. I'm still better than that old guy who has thick glasses. And I'm an excellent driver with fast reactions. I'll be fine. I'll drive slow."

Now, you may have seen other friends of yours get killed doing exactly the same thing. And you may tell him that. But some people are unable to hear that; they know damn well that they are just fine with drinking and driving, because they've done it dozens of times and nothing bad ever happened. All your stories about your dead friends are just scare stories to try to force them to get a cab. You're ruining their night!

Eventually, of course, your friend _does_ end up wrapped around a tree. It's frustrating; you can talk all you want, but short of taking his keys and getting into a fistfight there's not much you can do.

Then the next guy comes along. He's also sure he can drink and drive, and he tells you all his reasons he will be fine, too.

At some point you're going to start to get peeved at these people. You're going to get mad when you hear exactly the same story the fourth time. You try to tell them that their story is the same as the last guy's, and he's dead now. But it's like talking to a wall.

You have a few choices. You can:

1) Ignore the issue. Let em die; not your problem.
2) Keep trying.

The people you see here are the people who fall into category 2. I recall a jumper posting here about his brand new tiny canopy. People told him that it was a mistake, that he shouldn't downsize that fast. "I'll be careful; I won't make any low turns or anything" he said. A week later he was dead; his name headed up a thread in the Incidents forum. It's happened to me half a dozen times, and sometimes even when you are in their face all day about it it makes no difference. It's frustrating.

Real story -

A friend of mine started at Brown and downsized quickly. He really wanted to do high performance landings. When he didn't get much of a planeout, he went smaller to improve his landings. I talked to him about it, told him that it was his technique (or lack thereof) that was holding him back, and he was getting in over his head. The DZO talked to him. His friends talked to him. Finally he got sick of us and went to a different DZ. A few weeks later I heard that he had broken his femur. He was one of the lucky ones; it scared him. When he recovered he bought a much larger canopy, and got real canopy training from a canopy coach.

Ran into him a few years ago at a canopy piloting event. He had come in first in the slalom event. "Bill, man, I remember you telling me I wasn't ready for that canopy. Everyone was saying that. And I wasn't listening. It took a broken femur to make me start thinking about it. I'm just glad it wasn't worse." I was, too.

So maybe you will be fine; I hope you are. If you do get hurt, I hope that you recover well, and that you consider whether all this advice might just be worth listening to.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Right, but the bottom line is canopies like the Stiletto, Crossfire, and Cobalt are not for students or beginners. The advent of crossbraced canopies has not changed the performance of these canopies.

I agree. But I would no be so worried to see students out on big/very lightly loaded Spectres. Or Navigators. Perhaps even Silhouettes.

For Great Deals on Gear

[LeroyJenkins 0]

Ok team, waddup... throwing my hat into the ring.. +900 jumps, freefly, jump with people named max and chris

ANYHOO

Buddy jumps at my dropzone, buddy shows a lot of promise, buddy is also sucked in by watching people (me) hookturn. He keeps doing it, he has been grounded before. He keeps doing it. Its frustrating from my point of view, but he won't upsize, and if you ground him, he moves elsewhere.

I know. Dumb. So, the last resort is to teach. He's going to hurt himself, yes. Hopefully, with some divine inspiration, he'll learn from us(?) and become a better canopy pilot.


It bothers me to say this, but I started hookin, when I was at his level, and people (old men) told me to stop, and I'm still here, rippin it up, old school As little as I like to say it, or even view the next gen of skyidiots, you have to learn at your own pace. The best we can do, is offer advice and wear a suit and a tie at the inquest.

My bad, not meaning to troll,

Leroy out.



PS: I have been hurt