pilotdave 0 #26 November 14, 2005 QuoteI dont have any problem putting aff students under full elliptical canopies. Why is it because of an ellipse it is "dangerous"? Have you ever done that? What canopies, have you or would you use? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deadbug 0 #27 November 14, 2005 It is very good that people are concerned about people downsizeing too fast in this sport, and maby he is being too agressive. You and I will never know until we meet him and watch him fly. The idea that canopy progression is set in stone, although a good base line does not apply to every one. I have been this sport for a long time and I have seen all kinds of canopy pilots. I can give you examples of skydivers with thousands of jumps that still haven't gotten it figured out yet, and jumpers with several hundred jumps that it just seems to come naturally to. Background and natural ability do come into play here. I know that all the natural ability in the world won't help you if you don't have any experience, but background does help. I am a professional airline pilot and flying things ANY THING has always come naturally to me. My progression went like this. Manta 288, Dragonfly 225, Triathalon 160, Viper 135, Viper 120, Icarus FX 108. I was hooking the triathalon 160 at around 150 jumps and have never looked back. My point is that every one progresses at a different rate. So to rip on this guy on this forum without actually knowing him is baseless. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #28 November 14, 2005 Me: Your student canopy, do you mean the Cobalt?” Atair: “yes i mean the cobalt and previously the space/alpha. we are also offering our 'indigo' canopy for this season in sizes 170, 190 & 210. it is slightly less tapered than a cobalt, and the openings are tuned for lighter wingloadings.” Me: “Do you recommend putting students under Cobalts at a 1.2 wing loading?” Atair: “yes, anyone you would consider safe under a sabre, safire or hornet is equally safe on a cobalt.” Me: “Has this been done?” Atair: “yes” Me: “At what wing loading is a Cobalt "ideal" for beginners, and how many skydives (range) do you define "beginner" as?” Atair: “around 1.2 off student status. again anyone you would consider safe on a sabre, safire or hornet.” Me: “Does Atair have a chart showing performance vs. wing loading for the Cobalt?, not a recommended wing loading chart, most manufactures have those, PD has it right on the label.” Atair: “check out our web site faq page.” Me: “How do you define performance? Max speed? Max turn rate? Glide ratio? Altitude lost in a 360-degree turn?” Atair: “all of the above, depends on context.” Me: “Why do you say a square canopy (Sabre) will have more forward speed at the same wing loading as the Cobalt, but the Cobalt has less drag and is more efficient? Isn't this contradictory?” Atair: “no it isn't.” Me: “Would you agree that a common characteristic of elliptical canopies is a higher max turn rate and faster turn response than an equally sized, material, and wing-loaded square canopy?” Atair: “reducing drag from the ends of a canopy will translate to a faster turning speed all things being equal. but they are not, there are more variables to consider. a designer can make an elliptical canopy that does not turn as fast as a less elliptical canopy.” Atair would not respond to further questions such as: “Where? What DZ?” [are Cobalts used for student canopies?] “What wing loading is used for students?” [With Cobalts] “You said it is better to view "a chart of a canopy's performance vs wing loading". But Atair doesn't have one on the web page. Why? If it the best way to go?” Some other Atair nuggets: “btw without knowing anything about your flying skill, i would generally recommend against double down sizing.” “safe loadings for students range from .8-to 1.2 depending on the design and what measuring method the manufacturers uses to determine area.” [The largest Cobalt is a 170………..] “if i accidentally interchanged 'student' with 'begineer' my appologies.” [Several times, some accident] Jan 28, 2002, 6:52 AM “so far tested in a fullsize wind tunnel are 5 crossfires both on the 'list' and not on the list. i am waiting for 2 more crossfires with newer line trim modifications to arrive for testing before the report will be released.” [Everyone is still waiting for the report to be released] Do a search on “cobaltdan” and "Cobalt" or "Crossfire" and you’ll see their marketing tactics. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #29 November 14, 2005 QuoteSo to rip on this guy on this forum without actually knowing him is baseless. There are more than enough incidents in the incidents forum regarding the "I'm above the bell curve" jumpers like this one, in the 100-300 jump category, who thought they could handle it. And thought that their canopy choice was very appropriate given their self perceived skill level. The base, er, point is, 100-200-300 jump jumper, jumping a moderately aggressive wingloading on an elliptical canopy, was,is, and will continue to be the background info on a large number of our sports injuries/deaths. The other thing I wanted to comment on was that I didnt read anyone ripping on him, just my .02. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dbattman 0 #30 November 14, 2005 I think maybe I was a little hard on him, so apologies if he took it wrong. That wasn't my intent. Be careful up there- pain is a wonderful teacher. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #31 November 14, 2005 What do you know about; Spinning line twists? Riser inserts? Cutaway cable maintenance? Line set life spans? Vectran, HMA, Spectra, Dacron? Wing loading? Setting up steering line length? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #32 November 14, 2005 QuoteQuoteI dont have any problem putting aff students under full elliptical canopies. Why is it because of an ellipse it is "dangerous"? Have you ever done that? What canopies, have you or would you use? Dave safire. mainly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #33 November 14, 2005 Quotesafire. mainly. The Safire is no Cobalt or Stiletto. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TaylorC 0 #34 November 14, 2005 QuoteWhat do you know about; Spinning line twists? Riser inserts? Cutaway cable maintenance? Line set life spans? Vectran, HMA, Spectra, Dacron? Wing loading? Setting up steering line length? Derek I have never had a spinning line twist yet but i have seen vids/people get them and get out of them and not get out of them and cut away. I understand that with spinning mals the cutaway process can be harder do to the G-forces strained on the body from spinning and when the risers are twisted together they can cause excess force to be applied to the cutaway cables making it harder to cutaway. I don't claim to know everything never have never will but i do know a few things that i have been practicing for dangerous situations like the ones you guys have listed like learning to do flat turns at 50 feet, crosswind/downwind landings if needed, turning your canopy while flaring to avoid objects and keeping away from low jump number students while thier in the air. I know this isn't every situation that is covered and i don't have time to tell you everything i know on that question cause i have shit to do in RL instead of arguing on the internet where i can't accurately state everything i want to say. Sorry but what does searching for crossfire have to do with anything? Just curious i did read your whole post on what atair said. I don't believe i truly did a double downsize either since i did put a few jumps on a stilleto 150 before i transitioned to a 135. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #35 November 14, 2005 Quotei have seen vids/people get them and get out of them and not get out of them and cut away. What did they do differently to get out of the spinning line twists? How much altitude does you canopy lose in one 360? QuoteI understand that with spinning mals the cutaway process can be harder do to the G-forces strained on the body from spinning and when the risers and twisted together they can cause excess force to be applied to the cutaway cables making it harder to cutaway. Right. Do you have riser inserts? QuoteI don't claim to know everything never have never will but i do know a few things that i have been practicing for dangerous situations like the ones you guys have listed like learning to do flat turns at 50 feet, crosswind/downwind landings if needed, turning your canopy while flaring to avoid objects and keeping away from low jump number students while thier in the air. That is good, keep it up. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #36 November 14, 2005 QuoteAnyways if any of you are at the canadian invasion in AZ in january you will see me there I'll be there for the first week anyway, and would be happy to talk with you about whatever. Jason Peters always runs a canopy skills camp during the Invasion too, where, for very little money, he will video and debrief every landing you make for two days. You should definitely consider taking it. Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TaylorC 0 #37 November 14, 2005 i am waiting for my new container i am not sure if it has riser inserts on it but if it doesn't i was planning to get some. Do to the cameras being on thier heads i can't see what the rest of their body was doing but they were using thier hands to pry the two risers apart to start undoing the linetwists if they were high enough off the ground still. i will be there in the 2nd week from the 13th-22nd. i love having conversations with people about canopy piloting so if i see you there look forward to a conversation if not maybe some other itme Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #38 November 14, 2005 Quote i am waiting for my new container i am not sure if it has riser inserts on it but if it doesn't i was planning to get some. Good. QuoteDo to the cameras being on thier heads i can't see what the rest of their body was doing but they were using thier hands to pry the two risers apart to start undoing the linetwists if they were high enough off the ground still. Getting out of the line twists is secondary to getting the canopy to stop spinning. You are eating up altitude at a very fast rate under a sponning canopy, too many people have under estimated how much with poor results. My point to all this is there is much more to flying a HP canopy that pulling toggles and risers. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TaylorC 0 #39 November 14, 2005 i do understand thier is more to it than toggles and risers and that is why i am trying to get as much advice as possible from anyone who flies canopy from accuracy jumpers to pro swoopers i try to get info from all of them. I do do a lot of reading of diffrent articles on the internet, i study swooping videos, i do watch the mal videos of HP canopies to figure out how they fix the problems, i watch everyone who is an excellent canopy pilot and how they fly thier shit and i come here asking for advice once in awhile on what to do(even though it sometimes ends up going the way i don't want it to ) I do not want to be one of those low jumper statistics but i do want to have fun. I respect my canopy a lot and wish to live a long life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #40 November 14, 2005 QuoteQuotesafire. mainly. The Safire is no Cobalt or Stiletto. Derek first off, i know nothing about the cobalt. but i do about the stiletto.. is the cobalt as elliptical as the stiletto? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TaylorC 0 #41 November 14, 2005 thier in the same category from what i gathered Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #42 November 14, 2005 i wouldnt mind putting an aff student on a stilletto, loaded lightly that is. if it wasnt for the possibility of spinning line twists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #43 November 14, 2005 Quoteis the cobalt as elliptical as the stiletto? About the same yes. The biggest difference is the line attachment points and where the pilot is located under canopy, much more aft on the Cobalt.Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #44 November 14, 2005 Quotei wouldnt mind putting an aff student on a stilletto, loaded lightly that is. if it wasnt for the possibility of spinning line twists. The Sigma tandem is nothing but a big Stiletto Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #45 November 14, 2005 The Sigma tandem is being piloted by someone with at least 500 jumps... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #46 November 14, 2005 QuoteThe Sigma tandem is being piloted by someone with at least 500 jumps... Just the last 1000' if you are smart Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #47 November 14, 2005 Quotei have shit to do in RL instead of arguing on the internet I do do a lot of reading of diffrent articles on the internet Which one is it? Sucks when people tell you what you don't to hear. QuoteI do not want to be one of those low jumper statistics Why didn't you just say that in the first place? That changes everything. I thought you were one those guys who wanted to get busted up early on in their jumping. I'm glad you made the distinction, and set yourself apart from those other guys. Don't forget to tell reality, it has a way of not giving a shit what you want. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #48 November 14, 2005 QuoteVectran shows wear just fine. HMA on the other hand doesn't. I disagee. They both show wear. The confusing comes from people not knowing what to look for, which is to be expected whenever new technology hits the market...---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TaylorC 0 #49 November 14, 2005 QuoteQuotei have shit to do in RL instead of arguing on the internet I do do a lot of reading of diffrent articles on the internet Which one is it? Sucks when people tell you what you don't to hear. QuoteI do not want to be one of those low jumper statistics Why didn't you just say that in the first place? That changes everything. I thought you were one those guys who wanted to get busted up early on in their jumping. I'm glad you made the distinction, and set yourself apart from those other guys. Don't forget to tell reality, it has a way of not giving a shit what you want. no need to be a smart ass. i believe thier is a quite a bit of diffrence between arguing on the internet and reading articles. If you disagree with that maybe you have hit the ground hard a few to many times. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #50 November 14, 2005 Quotemaybe you have hit the ground hard a few to many times Thats good. But actually I haven't hit the ground hard at all. I have, on the other hand watched many. many folks (maybe like yourself) hit the ground all kinds of ways, resulting in all sorts of damage. Maybe the real answer is that you haven't hit the ground hard enough (yet). For the record, I do have a need to be a smartass, It's what I do. Say and do shit that makes sense, and I'll have nothing to say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
