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diablopilot

Pull-out jumpers......

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I've asked because in my experience there is no real good reason to make them any shorter than a throw out bridle. Mine are over 9 feet, and other than the fact the pack just slightly bigger, the benefits of the longer ones is huge.

My Mirage showed up with a 7 foot bridle, and I very shortly afterward changed it out for a longer one. My all my Infinity H/C's and my Reflex had 9 foot bridles.(Mirage will build them longer by request.)

Anyone have any comparative experience?
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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44" from loop - loop.
a caveat to be considered =
this is used on a C Flex rig deploying a free packed Lightning 2 - 4 seconds after exit.
most people think this is too short, but it works for me and pulls the PC up against the rings quite nicely.

be safe

kleggo

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Don't know what you mean. I have a BOC pouch for the PC with a hackey handle.


_________________________________________________

WOW!
are you saying that you don't know the difference between a pull-out method deployment device and a throw-out deployment method device?????????

where do you jump?
where did you learn to jump?

be safe

kleggo

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Don't know what you mean. I have a BOC pouch for the PC with a hackey handle.


_________________________________________________

WOW!
are you saying that you don't know the difference between a pull-out method deployment device and a throw-out deployment method device?????????

where do you jump?
where did you learn to jump?

be safe

kleggo



I dont find that to be surprising or unusual or any kind of failing in this persons part or on their training.
I got my A 15 years ago and then promptly quit jumping until 2 years ago. There was no such thing as a pull out 15 years ago (as far as I am aware) and even today I believe that they are in the minority as far as the type of deployment on most rigs.

The only reason I know the difference is because I saw someone packing one just a few months ago and asked them what it was.
__

My mighty steed

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Don't know what you mean. I have a BOC pouch for the PC with a hackey handle.


_________________________________________________

WOW!
are you saying that you don't know the difference between a pull-out method deployment device and a throw-out deployment method device?????????

where do you jump?
where did you learn to jump?

be safe

kleggo



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Irrelevant.
Junior jumpers only need to learn one system well. As long as they understand the subtlies of packing and deploying their own gear, that is enough.
Trying to teach junior jumpers about other systems - that they might never jump - is worse than a waste of time because it might confuse them.

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There was no such thing as a pull out 15 years ago (as far as I am aware) and even today I believe that they are in the minority as far as the type of deployment on most rigs.



Some of us were jumping pull outs (on Racers:)

Floating puds and hurt shoulders are not new:o
"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

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I understand the design and functionality of PUD systems, but I've never understood the benefit and the reason for it being restricted to higher jump numbers. I'd benefit from that post as well, JP... and I bet I'm not the only one.

But a search is in order for me anyways.
I really don't know what I'm talking about.

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From bag to P/C how long is your bridle?


My Racer Elite rigs all have 56-inch bridles, exactly. The largest one of them has a 28-inch ZP PC that extracts a Sabre2-210, and there is no PC hesitation. I always pull the PC fully outward until it is pulled from my grip as it inflates. However, I have dropped the PUD before with winter gloves, and yes...it will produce a hesitation.

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I've never understood [snip] the reason for it being restricted to higher jump numbers.



I didn't realise it was restricted to higher jump numbers outside the UK. In the UK the reason is relatively simple but a bit obtuse. Someone switched from throw out to pull out and didn't take enough care to understand the differences in the equipment and I think didn't find the handle. The BPA now requires people to have 200 jumps, in the hope that by then they will have been in the sport enough to question why there is this restriction and take the time and effort to learn the different equipment properly.

The BPA likes to make rules - and found an excuse for one here!

tash
Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

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I understand the design and functionality of PUD systems, but I've never understood the benefit and the reason for it being restricted to higher jump numbers



--A quick primer, for those that don't habla "pull out"--

The pull out system is a pretty basic design that has you pack all your bridle and the pilot chute itself into the container before you close the flaps. You just lay it all on top of the bag and pull the flaps across. Attached to the base of the PC (usually on the bridle itslef) is a tab with a grommet through it. A small pillow-like handle with a small lanyard (a couple of inches long) and a straight pin at the end all run through that tabbed-grommet (look up some pics of it and the construction will make more sense...it's pretty simple).

Only the handle, small lanyard and pin are outside the container after it is closed. You pin the container closed and route the small lanyard under one of the side flaps just to keep it out of the wind. The handle is attached in the same place your hackey sits, usually with a fold-out pocket of some sort and velcro. When it's time to deploy, you pull the handle, which opens the container, then continue pulling, which drags the pc into the air.

The benefits (as I see them):
1) YOU open the container, not the pilot chute. When you pull on that handle, you know the container is open. Since it's a short lanyard, you literally pull about 3 inches and feel the pop.

2) Because YOU open the container, and there is no energy used by the pc to do it, there is almost no pc hesitation. Deployments are "quicker" (NOT harder, they just feel like they happen in a faster sequence...because they do). This means there is less time for things to get snagged up, wrapped up, or otherwise f*%&ed up.

3) Also, since the PUD handle is attached at the base of the pc, and you drag it into the air, there is NO hesitation while the pc unwraps itself and catches air (some people qualify this as a negative...see below). I like this fact, since there is no bridle dancing around on your back while the pc gets wind in it. READ: reduction in the posibilty of horseshoe mals <-- this is my favorite thing about the PUD system, because the idea of a horseshoe scare the living shit out of me.

4) Since YOU manually unlock the container, if it fails to unlock (almost always a small packing error, and very preventable), and you let go of the PUD handle, there is only about three inches of "junk" hanging off your rig to put a reserve past...as opposed to about 8 feet of bridle and a pc. Let's see, which sounds like better odds to me???

5) Since the whole system is basically packed into the container, the chances of a premature deployment are VERY remote. At the worst, you get a floating PUD handle, which can be captured and resolved in freefall. NOTE: this is a big reason why some ol' timers dislike PUDs. Most guys who have been in the sport more than 15-20 years know someone who went in because they spent the rest of their life looking for a floating PUD instead of just punching out their reserve. This is a result of POOR TRAINING, not the system. "2 tries and you're out. Not a single one more, no mater what" is what I always taught my transition jumpers.

The detractors (as I see them):
1) The system requires that you can visually inspect a grommet that is sitting approx. 1cm under a side flap...and is easily moved to be checked. If the grommet flips over, you can get a hard pull that you simply cannot overcome. Still not 8' of crap over your back, but not perfect either. Now, if you can't check a grommet that is AMAZINGLY easy to check, you have no business jumping out of an airplane. Take up bowling. Seriously.

2) By simple and true numbers, you ARE more likely to have a reserve ride with a PUD system. this is usually associated with a floating PUD. Having said that, I've seen MANY more mals from not being able to find a hackey handle (that is usually stuffed into a BOC) than from a floating PUD. On the other hand, there are A LOT more BOCs out there, so the odds just favor more failures. My counter argument to this (more reserve rides due to floating PUDs) has always been that I'd rather have a reserve ride with NOTHING over my back than the posibility of an 8 foot anchor hanging out back there. Most experts will tell you that the odds of hanging up your reserve on a pc-in-tow are pretty low, but I'd rather not test that out.

There are maintenace issues with both set-ups. That's just the simple facts of life. Velcro needs to be replaced on PUDs and BOCs wear out on throw-outs.

What I've always told transition students is that it's not about jump numbers, it's about the ability to pay attention while packing, maintain your gear properly, and follow emergency procedure rules in flight...no more than what you should be doing every jump regardless of your deployment type. Each jump is a working jump, the one you decide to slack off on and not pay attention to is the one that kills you.

It's been my finding that most people who dislike PUDs do so for one of about four reasons:
1) They know someone who went in searching for a floating PUD (stupid way to die...just follow your emergency procedures)

2) There are fewer of them around so they don't feel comfortable with them. This is kind of a lemming thing, if you ask me. Educate yourself and make decisions based off the information you have and the discussions you have with qualified individuals. Anyone you tells you that any major style of system, no matter what the function, is ALL BAD probably isn't qualified to speak about that system...or is so ignorant that they can't (or won't) learn or be taught. If a system has survived in skydiving for any length of time, there are SOME redeaming qualities. This goes for the "I use a packer" excuse too. If you're that worried about it, have the packer stop before closing the flaps and do it yourself...or find a packer who actually knows what they're doing...it's you're money and it all costs the same.

3) There is some additional maintenace. I've never really understood this argument either. There is work to be done on any system, just because you ignore it on your BOC while your hackey flops around doesn't mean it's not a problem.

4) It hurts their elbow to use a PUD. That's because the pc is put directly into the wind and inflates right away, putting stress on your elbow. Silly skydiver, you pull the pc out to start a deployment. Put it into the wind and let it do it's job, don't hold onto it. I've found that a good hard throw (as opposed to a "pull") gets rid of this problem entirely. I always thought it was stupid that people hold their pc out there while they wave off, look around, whatever...you're just giving that long bridle more time to wrap around something...

As you can tell, I'm a proponent of the PUD system. I do try to show both sides of any argument, as I only think it's fair. But, it's been my experience, that most people who don't like PUDs have a reason that can be educated away. As I stated before though, it's up to YOU what YOU jump. If you're not comfortable with it, whether it be an education level issue or whatever, you shouldn't be using it.

I hope this clears things up for those that wanted some pros and cons. Now, go ask a bunch more people why they like or don't like PUDs and then you'll have some education to work with. Knowledge is power people, get some before it's tool late.

P.S. - it's too late, and this response is too long, to catch all my spelling errors...please excuse them!!


"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

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wings container and lovin' it




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Pull-out jumpers......

From bag to P/C how long is your bridle?

Please state rig type as well, and if it's an after market P/C who manufactured it.



Ummm... yeah.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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