To PUD or not to PUD

[packerboy 3]

I'm thinking of going PUD. I have my own reasons in my mind and I'm looking for validation.

What are the advantages and disadvantages as seen by the masterdebaters here?

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[Miami 0]

I've been considering a pud as well, especially since I had my pc wrap around my ringsight recently, for the following reasons... 1) I like that the container will definitely be opened with a good pull and 2) when the pc leaves your hand it is already inflated, instead of having to flip around and inflate cause you were holding it's apex.

Reason I have not gotten a pud are 1) I use packers, puds are not as common so more likely to be screwed up by packers, 2) I don't think I would feel comfortable jumping a pud with a wingsuit, and 3) I really don't like the idea of having to dump my reserve at terminal cause the pud got bumped out of it's pocket.

What reasons are you considering a pud for?

Miami

[tso-d_chris 0]

Are you considering changing from a hackey handle to a freefly pud, or ar you considering switching from a throw-out deployment system (throw pc, pc pulls pin and pulls d-bag out of container) to a pull-out deployment system (pull pud, which pulls pin and pulls pc out of main container, pc lifts dbag)?

For Great Deals on Gear

[packing_jarrett 0]

and another thing... I don't like how jumpshack sets up their pud unless its different on a 2K3 but on a NOS like my dads and my uncle's rigs it looks kind of sloppy. You have to use your fingertips to get a hold of the thing.

Na' Cho' Cheese

[JohnMitchell 14]

I've got an Infinity with a pull out. I've owned 2 racers and a javelin with pull outs. I like them, obviously. Kelly built me a pull out handle, same size as my cutaway handle, with lots of stuffing. It's very easy to grip. I have had 2 totals over the years, one from laziness and thick gloves, the other was packer induced. Each time it was a clean reserve deployment with no pilot chute in tow to worry about.

Do I ever borrow throw out rigs? Of course. Do I like them as much as my pull outs? No.

One caveat, like Jarret said, it takes more of a strong grip to pull the pull out. If someone has hand strength issues, they might be better with a throw out.

[GravityGirl 0]

I jumped a pull-out for about 1000 jumps and it gave me a shoulder problem. Every once in a while the PC would just catch air before I release it and it would tweak my shoulder.

My current rig has a hackey handle throw out.

How did your PC wrap your ring site, Miami?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[riggerrob 558]

I like pull-outs because they result in more repacks after hard pulls, floating dildoes and Spinetto openings.
Hee!
Hee!
This point has been debated several times before.
Read Bill Booth's response as he knows more than the next dozen of us combined.

[diablopilot 2]

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I like pull-outs because they result in more repacks after hard pulls, floating dildoes and Spinetto openings.
Hee!
Hee!

So you must like all the repacks from P/C in tow's on throw outs, not to mention the damage caused by firing a reserve past one. What about the horse shoe repacks? Maybe the repair work from entanglements?

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Bill Booth's response as he knows more than the next dozen of us combined.

Yes, do. And realize that his view is one in a field of educated oppinions, just like others out there.

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Spinetto openings

BTW, WHAT????? You can't be trying to sell that one....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[katzurki 0]

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and another thing... I don't like how jumpshack sets up their pud unless its different on a 2K3 but on a NOS like my dads and my uncle's rigs it looks kind of sloppy. You have to use your fingertips to get a hold of the thing.

I've got a 2k3 pullout. My only gripe with it is that the square inch piece of velcro they utilize on it is constantly tearing away at the PC's mesh. This doesn't seem to do the PC any harm, but it wore the velcro out in 40 measly jumps. (Basically, I come back from the jump, and both pieces of velcro, male and female, are firmly hooked onto the pilot chute's mesh. Can't see what I am doing wrong.)

[Miami 0]

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How did your PC wrap your ring site, Miami?

Lazy throw. I usually look over my right shoulder as I pitch to watch the pc launch, then bring my head back to level before opening shock starts. This particular occasion my pc decided to come give me a kiss and while it was there it made a great little half hitch around the ring sight. I was very fortunate I had pulled not too long after the tandem...I screwed with it for 1K' and got it off at 3K'...another couple of seconds and I would have dumped my reserve and had to hope it cleared the horseshoe.

Miami

[packerboy 3]

Throw out to pull out. I like the idea of opening the container myself and also not having the PC and bridle outside of the container. I have had a premie in a head up position before and it sucked. I know this is a non issue with good bridle protection and a tight spandex, but I like the idea of everything being in the container untill I decide different.

I also would prefer a floating PUD to a PC in tow any day. Although not caused by the same reason, I would give the likelyhood of either occuring about the same chance.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[Miami 0]

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I also would prefer a floating PUD to a PC in tow any day. Although not caused by the same reason, I would give the likelyhood of either occuring about the same chance.

A pc in tow is an actual malfunction, i.e. something was packed incorrectly for it to happen. A floating pud can happen even if everything is packed correctly, but it gets nudged out in the plane or during freefall. Much more likely (but still rare) to have a floating pud.

edit to add: I agree with you about rather having a floating pud to a pc in tow though...much rather have less back there to dump a reserve into if at all possible. And a floating pud won't suddenly deploy as your reserve is deploying.

Miami

[rigging65 0]

Just my $0.02, but I've always liked the idea that your container is either open or closed...and you know which one it is...with a pull-out.

It does require a bit more thought when packing, but if you're using a packer you can always ask them to just pack it and pin it, and let you finish putting the PUD away. Since most "hard pulls" on pull-outs are from a rotated grommet, this reduces that chance...and, more importantly, gives you peace of mind.

Either system works just fine...when all goes well...but, only IMO, I'd rather deal with the clean, fast mals associated with the pull-out (even if you want to argue that they may be more prevalent) than with the drawn out, uncertain mals associated with a throw out.

Never wanting to put words into anyones mouth, I might also throw out there that Mr. Booth has to think of skydivers as a general "group" and may make his recommendations based off that...as would (and did) I when I was working in the sport. Individuals are just that, individual. Some people may do better with a PUD than others...just as with any other tool. Always discuss your potential choices with someone you trust, and is honestly qualified to intelligently discuss the options with you, before you make a decision....this goes for jumpers with 20 jumps or 2000!

Like I said, just my $0.02!!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[packerboy 3]

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A pc in tow is an actual malfunction, i.e. something was packed incorrectly for it to happen. A floating pud can happen even if everything is packed correctly, but it gets nudged out in the plane or during freefall.

Whether it is a packed problem or deployment problem or a got bumped in the plane problem, it's still a problem. A floating PUD is still a problem I would rather have.

Question: Container is open, PC is packed uncocked. What's going to happen most of the time? If you pull the D-bag out by hand, is there enough drag to get the canopy out?

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[diablopilot 2]

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Question: Container is open, PC is packed uncocked. What's going to happen most of the time?

Fequently the P/C may just cock it'self and you'll get a longer deployment sequence.

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If you pull the D-bag out by hand, is there enough drag to get the canopy out?

If you were to knock the bacg loose by hitting the container with your elbows and got the bag into the air, then yes, but it will also be a longer deployment sequence.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[jumpyld 0]

PUDs are great because everything is INSIDE the container. Great for freeflying, great for full contact RW, and great for riding in the plane. No spandex to wear. When you deploy, you know your container is now open when you feel the pin pull. It's a solid system.

Having said all that, i'll point out that i switched to pull-out at 1000 jumps and then switched back recently (at about 1800) to throw-out. Here are my reasons:

1) Better deployments. i don't know why, but this is a subjective judgement. Perhaps it has something to do with a smooth return to a stable body position. When jumping a pull-out, i tend to hold my hand back there for that extra split second to feel the pilot chute catch air. With a throw out, i reach and throw, then arch immediately. i don't look over my shoulder to check the PC inflation unless i'm getting out really low (i.e. 2200' or below). A friend of mine has recently switched back as well and shares these observations.

2) The ability to jump a bird-man or winged camera suit. When jumping a pull out with camera wings, i found that getting the PC out of the burble was a problem, no matter how fast i could bring in my arms to collapse the wings. If your PC dances in the burble for a second or two with the container closed (as with throw-out) it's not such a big deal. Once that container is open, however (as with pull-out), you're taking an already out-of-sequence deployment and multiplying it by the chaos factor of a hesitating pilot chute.

3) i recently became a tandem instructor, and the throwing motion is definitely something to practice, so why not on every jump? A good, aggressive throw is always a good thing whether it's a 5' drogue or a 27" pilot chute - they both need to inflate in clean air. The pin-pulling part of deploying with a pull-out interrupts (however briefly) this motion.

The argument that using packers can lead to problems with pull-out holds water depending on where you are... if you are at a "big" drop zone, the packers have probably dealt with many so it's no problem. When i end up using a packer at my home DZ, i end up closing the rig myself because they're mindful of screwing it up. A worse situation is when the packer goes ahead and closes the rig incorrectly because they don't want to admit they don't know. This is unfortunate, but can lead to hard pulls! If you do switch and end up using a packer, ask them directly if they know your system, because pull-out is uncommon enough that they should not take this as any kind of slight to their knowledge.

Both systems are great, and switching to pull-out does eliminate the dreaded horseshoe scenario. However, a properly maintained throw-out (spandex monitored for wear, proper handle placement, proper bridle routing and protection) is just as secure on your back as a PC inside the container.

Enjoy your decision...

ajpen
--

important safety briefing... don't f*ckin' die!

[Miami 0]

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A floating PUD is still a problem I would rather have.

I would rather not have a problem to begin with.
My point was that having a floating pud is much more likely than a pc in tow.

Miami

[freeflysteve 0]

got nylon screws on my ring sight rather lose the ring sight than a thousand feet
glad you was ok

Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting!

[rigging65 0]

I agree with most of what you said, but I've always had a problem with this:

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you're taking an already out-of-sequence deployment and multiplying it by the chaos factor of a hesitating pilot chute.

It's only "out of sequence" if you define "in sequence" as the order in which a throw out system works. People have been saying pull-outs are out-of-sequence for years and it's just not true.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[pbla4024 0]

I think here:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=512508;search_string=pullout;#512508
designer of both systems says the pull out is by definition "out of sequence" deployment.

Fido

[rigging65 0]

Yes, I'm aware of Mr. Booth's post....it was in response to one of my posts.

In my mind at least, for something to be "out of sequence" there can only be one sequence that works. Since there is obviously more than one way to get a parachute into the air, and those ways all work, there can be more than one sequence.

I certainly respect Mr. Booth and have actually spoken with him on several occasions about this and other points (many of which we agree on). But this is one point we disagree on.

The pull-out works, and it works well. It works better for some people than for others, and each jumper needs to make their own decision. No one person's opinion (neither mine nor Mr. Booth's) is adequate to make a decision on...

Gather your own information, and be honest with yourself. Be a smart jumper and don't take ANYONE's opinion as gospel.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[BlueSBDeath 2]

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We all also know that "out of sequence" deployments are not a good thing. (For instance: You don't want your canopy to get out of the bag before your lines unstow, do you?) Well, do you really want you main container open before your pilot chute is developing drag? A pullout deployment is out of sequence by definition.

I just don't see a pull out as an out of sequence method of deployment............I open my reserve container before the reserve PC developes drag

Just my 2.1 cents.

Arvel

BSBD...........Its all about Respect,

USPA#-7062, FB-2197, Outlaw 499

[CReWLL 0]

" I open my reserve container before the reserve PC developes drag "
Original Wonderhogs used a hesitator loop to prevent the reserve from leaving the container before the pilot was inflated.
Whether or not you agree, throw-outs deployments are more favorably sequenced.

[diablopilot 2]

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Whether or not you agree, throw-outs deployments are more favorably sequenced.

Really? That's why every modern sport reserv, most military freefall gear, oh and pilot emergency rigs all open the container BEFORE exposing the P/C to the relative wind?

Your opinion, is just that, and opinion.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billbooth 10]

Look at your reserve container. On most modern rigs, starting with the Vector I, it is designed to "hold" the bag in place until the pilot chute pulls it out. The degree of "hold" is determined by whether the main container is open or closed. If it is closed, you are most likely at terminal, where pilot chute hesitations are very common. So, I designed the riser covers and main side flaps to wrap around and "grab" the edges of the reserve bag, holding it in place with a force of at least 15 lbs., even when the reserve container is "open". This is OK, because at terminal, your reserve pilot chute pulls over 100 lbs.

However, this degree of hold would not be OK after a slow speed breakaway, where you pilot chute barely pulls 15 lbs. So, when the main container and risers covers are open (which will always be the case if you are about to breakaway) I designed the reserve container to grip with a force of under 10 lbs. Pilot chute hesitations usually don't happen at low speed, so I could afford to loosen up the reserve container grip a bit.

I still had to build in some grip for situations where you breakaway, and then wait until terminal to deploy your reserve. It is precisely because this scenario is so common following a breakaway from a high performance spinner, that I am "pushing" the Skyhook for experienced jumpers. I have personally seen two fatalities from out of sequence reserve deployments, where the reserve bag got out of the container during a pilot chute hesitation, and entangled with the pilot chute and bridle.

So, my reserve container is a compromise, designed to prevent out-of-sequence deployments at terminal, while still allowing quick reserve deployments at low speed. It has been successful enough so that almost every rig made today uses it. But, it is really hard to design the same features into a main container, which is why I prefer the in-sequence hand deploy method.

Besides, nowadays, reserves require AAD's, and AAD's and hand deploy pilot chutes are incompatable. Otherwise, I would probably offer an in-sequence hand deploy reserve system.