US Airways plane crashes into Hudson River

[normiss 622]

Thanks!
I wondered.

It's gonna be interesting to hear the details when they come out. Cockpit recorder too....

[SuFantasma 0]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/9984154/a320hydraulic

Y yo, pa' vivir con miedo, prefiero morir sonriendo, con el recuerdo vivo".
- Ruben Blades, "Adan Garcia"

[pilotdave 0]

Do airliners (or at least fly-by-wire airliners) typically leave the APU running?

Dave

[normiss 622]

I was wondering the same thing...the 'A' is for auxiliary, right??

[Rookie120 0]

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I'm curious how much effort/work it took to get that bird down....can you imagine how busy that cockpit was the last few minutes??? Muscle memory!

I dont know how much muscle memory had to do with it. The A320 has a joystick. I think the old timer just had some skills and experience and a lot of luck.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[pwln 0]

Everyone knows USAIR stands for Underwater Seats Available In Rear.

Great job to everyone, even the guy in his undies swimming to shore.

[Rookie120 0]

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Do airliners (or at least fly-by-wire airliners) typically leave the APU running?

Usually they leave it on while taxing and for takeoff then they shut it down for the flight until they start there setup for approach. Twin engine planes like the 757 might leave it on while over the ocean if a generator or something else on the plane is on MEL. The APU doesnt have to be running for takeoff though. The APU can be put placarded INOP and the plane can still be good for dispatch.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[pilotdave 0]

Found an A320 checklist online. APU gets shut down after engine start and turned back on after landing (if required).

Dave

[Broke 0]

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So are you saying that the A320 surrendered to the Canadian Geese?

You know those Canadian Geese were trained by Al-Qaida terrorists to take down domestic foights in the United States of America.


I am glad that everyone got out alive, and Kudos to the pilot who set her down smoothly on the river that is simply amazing airmanship

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[billvon 2,391]

>Do airliners (or at least fly-by-wire airliners) typically leave the APU running?

I don't know. But they do use it during takeoff to run the air conditioning (to unload the engines from having to supply that bleed air) and the A320 Pilot's Manual says:

=================
ABNORMAL CONFIGURATIONS

Failure of one engine generator:
The system automatically replaces the failed generator with
- the APU GEN (if available), or
- the other engine generator (automatically shedding part of the galley load.)
=================
It also says of the APU:

=================
IN FLIGHT
- It backs up the electrical system.
- It backs up the air conditioning.
- It can be used to start the engines.
=================

[futuredivot 0]

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You know those Canadian Geese were trained by Al-Qaida terrorists to take down domestic foights in the United States of America.

they were probably French Canadian

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[Broke 0]

Vichy French Canadian

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[Icon134 0]

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You know those Canadian Geese were trained by Al-Qaida terrorists to take down domestic foights in the United States of America.

they were probably French Canadian

I don't know... Considering the number of these Geese that are now born in the states... I would Imagine that most of them are effectively Naturalized Citizens and Thus should be called American Geese.

Now, since they're obivously terrorists I think we should kill them all...

DEATH to the Canadian (I mean American) Geese!!!

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[pchapman 261]

A few comments on things mentioned in the thread:

- I don't consider it such a fantastic display of skill that he ditched it OK. Still, it seems like some good decision making considering there isn't much flat land in NYC. They presumably put it down nice and evenly, without dropping it in from 20' or catching one engine in the water first. It probably helped they were on a flat river and not dealing with oceanic swells.

- The A320 has almost no manual reversion -- but there is a little if all the power is out: There are rudder cables that would work with a little dihedral effect to create turns. And there is mechanical pitch trim, although I'd bet it is slow and tricky to use well.

- We haven't quite figured out A320 APU and RAT use here. (Time to check some aviation forums...)
In one of the online manuals it suggested that if hydraulic power drops too low, the Ram Air Turbine drops out and activates automatically to maintain sufficient hydraulic power for the controls.

- If they lost all engine power, the descent angle wouldn't be that steep. Airliners with their clean fuselages and long efficient wings actually have glide ratios better than your average light plane. Maybe 16 or 18 to 1 in all the numbers I see. Light planes may only be 8 or 10 to 1. That's all at best glide speed, without the drag of flaps to slow before landing.

An airliner will be moving fast along its glide path, so high descent speeds can still result if the glide angle is poor.

For example: I don't know A320 speeds, but let's take a conservative 150 knots at a 14:1 glide ratio. That's only a 1100 fpm descent -- a fraction more than a student skydiver under a Manta.

But if the glide ratio goes down to 6:1 lets say with some flap out, then the descent rate is up at 2400 fpm. That is getting high, although a small crossbrace canopy in full flight may be doing 1900 fpm easily.

[akarunway 1]

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Quote

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You know those Canadian Geese were trained by Al-Qaida terrorists to take down domestic foights in the United States of America.

they were probably French Canadian

I don't know... Considering the number of these Geese that are now born in the states... I would Imagine that most of them are effectively Naturalized Citizens and Thus should be called American Geese.

Now, since they're obivously terrorists I think we should kill them all...

DEATH to the Canadian (I mean American) Geese!!!

Donno. I'm in SoCal and saw 3 flocks heading north yesterday while sitting in the backyard. Maybe they were MEXICAN geese heading for Canada.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Rookie120 0]

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A few comments on things mentioned in the thread:

- I don't consider it such a fantastic display of skill that he ditched it OK.

He lost both engines after takeoff and everybody survived. I say some skill was involved.

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- We haven't quite figured out A320 APU and RAT use here.

I dont know exactly about the A320. But most other RAT's or ADG's are pretty much useless uner 160 knots. I dont know what his speed was so we have to wait for NTSB to come up with the data.


***without the drag of flaps to slow before landing.
***


From the video I just seen with the wing in the air and from what the media just reported the flaps were still in the takeoff config. That changes your glide rate there.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[BillyVance 34]

I was just curious, and I know absolutely nothing about aerodynamics and airflow, but....

Couldn't they design and install some kind of coned screen that could deflect birds and still not impede air flow into the engines?

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[futuredivot 0]

Short answer-Not at present

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[Rookie120 0]

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Couldn't they design and install some kind of coned screen that could deflect birds and still not impede air flow into the engines?

I'm not an engineer but I think that would defeat the design of how the engine works. Take your fan at home and cover half of it up and you get reduced air flow. I think the same would happen here.


At Newark we have been getting a number of bird strikes this year. I dont know how the numbers compare from last year but in my eyes it seems we have had more this year than last. Just this week we had a goose go through one of our engines. We did a boroscope and changed the fan blades. Soap and water to get the feathers, guts and blood off the inner cowls but besides that no other damage. Compared to 5 weeks ago when we had major sheetmetal repair to do after a flock of geese hit the leading edge of the wing and horizontal stab.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[hackish 8]

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From the video I just seen with the wing in the air and from what the media just reported the flaps were still in the takeoff config. That changes your glide rate there.

I'm wondering if flaps are in the checklist for a water ditching? For those who found the checklists online got a link? I'm just curious.

-Michael

[ryoder 1,381]

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they were probably French Canadian

I don't know... Considering the number of these Geese that are now born in the states... I would Imagine that most of them are effectively Naturalized Citizens and Thus should be called American Geese.

Now, since they're obivously terrorists I think we should kill them all...

DEATH to the Canadian (I mean American) Geese!!!

I never had an opinion on Canadian Geese until I lived in the NW burbs of Chicago.
We called them "rats with wings". They shit all over every outdoor horizontal surface, and in the spring they attack anyone walking/running/rollerblading/cycling if there are young ones around. The only good goose is a dead one.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Rookie120 0]

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I'm wondering if flaps are in the checklist for a water ditching?

I have no idea. From the little amount of time from liftoff until splash I don't think they had time to grab the checklist. I know water ditching is not on the normal checklist. When I go back to work I will look at the QRH and see if "water ditch" is in that one.

From the last pictures I just saw the leading edge slats got ripped off also. From the looks of it they were deployed when they hit the water from the looks of it.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[dannydan 0]

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I'm curious how much effort/work it took to get that bird down....can you imagine how busy that cockpit was the last few minutes??? Muscle memory!

I dont know how much muscle memory had to do with it. The A320 has a joystick. I think the old timer just HAS some skills and experience and a lot of luck.

the reports i have heard this pm says that "Sully" (pilot) is a Glider in his offtime...

Of all of the "ditchs" in commercial av history, i would like to find out the AGES of the pilot!

[Jeffwxyz 0]

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- We haven't quite figured out A320 APU and RAT use here. (Time to check some aviation forums...)
In one of the online manuals it suggested that if hydraulic power drops too low, the Ram Air Turbine drops out and activates automatically to maintain sufficient hydraulic power for the controls.

- If they lost all engine power, the descent angle wouldn't be that steep. Airliners with their clean fuselages and long efficient wings actually have glide ratios better than your average light plane. Maybe 16 or 18 to 1 in all the numbers I see. Light planes may only be 8 or 10 to 1. That's all at best glide speed, without the drag of flaps to slow before landing.

An airliner will be moving fast along its glide path, so high descent speeds can still result if the glide angle is poor.

According to the manual, the RAT will auto deploy if AC power is lost on both AC busses.

There are 3 ways to pump hyd fluid on the A320. Direct drive from each engine, Electric motor driven pumps, and the RAT.

If the APU was running at the time of the bird strike (it would normally be) then the APU would have kept AC power up and the RAT would not have deployed. Also, with AC power, there would have been full functionality of all 3 hydraulic systems because of the electric pumps.

The RAT only feeds 1 hyd system which only provides basic flight control.

An interesting point is that all 3 hydraulic tanks hold a combined amount of 8.8 gallons Not any allowance for a leak!

The pilot would have to lower the flaps to stay in the air at a low enough air speed to land safely. Dragging the tail to bleed speed off is also important in ditching.

[Jeffwxyz 0]

Look at this. A safe, no power landing of a 767 in 1983.

The pilot was also a glider pilot in his off time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider