Hooknswoop 19 #51 October 10, 2005 QuoteInformation now available to them from this and other incidents and common sense. We can't change the past, we can determine the future. Adrian didn't have the benifit of the knowledge his death has provided. Being told he can't fire the Cypres under canpy, which was released long after Airtec was aware that was false, and not having a way to accurately measure his rate of descent, set him up for failure. He wa mislead and didn't have enough information to make a good choice. This is still true today. What information do swoopers have to make a good choice about their risk of firing their AAD under canopy? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,391 #52 October 10, 2005 >What information do swoopers have to make a good choice about >their risk of firing their AAD under canopy? The top swoopers. This forum. PARACHUTIST. Skydiving magazine. S+TA's. Their local gear stores. Their local instructors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #53 October 10, 2005 Quote >What information do swoopers have to make a good choice about >their risk of firing their AAD under canopy? The top swoopers. This forum. PARACHUTIST. Skydiving magazine. S+TA's. Their local gear stores. Their local instructors. And which one of those did Adrian fail to get the information he needed from? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,391 #54 October 10, 2005 >And which one of those did Adrian fail to get the information he needed from? I think it would have been difficult for Adrian to get information on his own death and what caused it. It's been long said that the rules in this sport were written in blood; sadly, we have now written another one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #55 October 10, 2005 QuoteI think it would have been difficult for Adrian to get information on his own death and what caused it. It's been long said that the rules in this sport were written in blood; sadly, we have now written another one. OK, so we agree that it wasn't Adrian's fault for not reading the manual or knowing his descent rate under canopy. We also agree that Airtec made a mistake. Airtec knew the Cypres could fire an open canopy whent hey wrote the Cypres2 manual. They didn't release a statement until after Adrian's death. I think Airtec is partially responsible for Adrian's death. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #56 October 11, 2005 Quote I think Airtec is partially responsible for Adrian's death. I do not think this at all. I think the most important and most transferable lesson from Adrian's death is that a downplane takes longer to recognize and react to than a SBS or stack. I can't help but think that if the reserve deployed into a sbs or stack, then Adrian would have lived. Since the reserve went into a downplane, it took a longer amount of time to realize this. By the time he realized it, and cutaway the main, he was too low. A good question to ask, is if he had cutaway, say 50 feet higher, would he have lived? The second most important lesson is that canopy descent rates can overlap with freefall descent rates. If you do HP maneuvers that may place yourself in this envelope then reconsider your use of an AAD. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #57 October 11, 2005 QuoteI think the most important and most transferable lesson from Adrian's death is that a downplane takes longer to recognize and react to than a SBS or stack. By far the most important lesson is swoopers can fire their AAD's even though Airtec said they couldn't. This incident has forced them to admit that. I see a lot of discussion about AAD's and swooping, but none about reaction time to a downplane/biplane/SBS...............Wonder why that is? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #58 October 11, 2005 QuoteI see a lot of discussion about AAD's and swooping, but none about reaction time to a downplane/biplane/SBS...............Wonder why that is? Might have something to do with the rates of occurrences of these events. See http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1786145#1786145 http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1786145#1786292 A couple of years from now some jumper will make a post like this: QuoteThere I was being stupid. I tossed my PC when my AAD fired. The chutes went into a downplane - only I didn't realize it right away. It was not like the PC in tow, SBS I had a couple of months ago. On that jump I knew instantly that I had a SBS. It took me several seconds to realize what happened. I blame USPA for not telling me that it takes longer to diagnose a downplane and I cutaway too low and broke both my femurs. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #59 October 11, 2005 I think it has a lot more to do with the altitude differences. Deploying low and the AAD firing happens much higher while the jumper is going much slower (brakes set, just opened), than coming out of your final turn at speed at a low altitude. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #60 October 11, 2005 QuoteI think it has a lot more to do with the altitude differences. Deploying low and the AAD firing happens much higher while the jumper is going much slower (brakes set, just opened), than coming out of your final turn at speed at a low altitude. According to the Airtec report Adrian's CYPRES fired at 750 ft. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #61 October 11, 2005 QuoteAccording to the Airtec report Adrian's CYPRES fired at 750 ft. And they tend to fire higher when the jumper is rotated head up by the deploying main canopy, 1000+ft. Bottom line is Airtec knew the Cypres could fire under an open canopy when they printed the Cypres2 manual, but stated that it would not fire under canopy, regardless of what you did. The 78-mph activation speed isn't helpful information since there isn't a reliable, easy, and accurate way to measure that descent rate. He didn't have the information he needed to make an informed choice even though the infoirmatiomn existed. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #62 October 12, 2005 So, someone with thousands of jumps doesn't have their eyes dialed in well enough to be able to say "Wow, that's a lot of ground rush - I must be going pretty fast!"? Was Airtek wrong by not more aggressively getting the information out that more radical swoops COULD exceed the firing parameters? Yes. With that said, I've still not seen anything in the manual that shows the circuit that senses the canopy is open and keeps the Cypres from firing if the parameters are exceeded. Maybe it's my electronics background, but I'm going to believe technical data over sales verbiage every time...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #63 January 4, 2006 The point is that a Cypres does not fire when you are going pretty fast, a condition that you can perceive. It fires when you are going 78 mph in the vertical plane as determined by changes in air density over time, a condition that it would be difficult to detect using your eyes. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #64 January 5, 2006 That was exactly my point - the Cypress is going to fire at 78mph - it doesn't matter if you're under canopy, in the plane or in freefall. I'm going to go with the technical data from the manual over sales pitch anyday...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #65 January 5, 2006 QuoteThat was exactly my point - the Cypress is going to fire at 78mph - it doesn't matter if you're under canopy, in the plane or in freefall. I'm going to go with the technical data from the manual over sales pitch anyday... But it does matter in what direction you are going 78 mph. If it is horizontal, no problem. It has to be vertical to count. There are very few canopy pilots that can do this. SparkMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base_nz 0 #66 January 6, 2006 In Adrian's case there was no emergency. His gear created the emergency that killed him. Quote His gear did not create an emergency, his actions told the gear there was an emergency. The cypres did exactly what it was designed to do. .Quote I fail to see how his gear failed to cause and emergengy!..... The Cypress did exactly what it was designed to do........ and created an emergency! There is going to be an ongoing problem as long as People are pushing the boundries... You just have to try to be mindfull of the problems it can cause. Chain of events!!(sometimes easier said then done.) And the suppliers are trying to do something about it... Untill then Realise it is a possibility and act accordingly. Blue skies.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #67 January 6, 2006 QuoteI fail to see how his gear failed to cause and emergengy!..... The Cypress did exactly what it was designed to do........ and created an emergency! There is going to be an ongoing problem as long as People are pushing the boundries... You just have to try to be mindfull of the problems it can cause. Chain of events!! Quote Huh? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #68 January 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteI fail to see how his gear failed to cause and emergengy!..... The Cypress did exactly what it was designed to do........ and created an emergency! There is going to be an ongoing problem as long as People are pushing the boundries... You just have to try to be mindfull of the problems it can cause. Chain of events!! Quote Huh? I agree with you. Huh? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
