Getting Big to get back from a long spot????

[BrianM 1]

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that canopies have several inputs - while half brakes is good for many canopies, rear risers might be smarter for other models, etc etc

There is no one "best" method, even for the same canopy at the same wing loading.

Which input, and how much of that input to use, will depend not only on canopy characteristics but on other factors such as wind speed. If I'm long in high winds, I probably want to fly at the lowest possible descent rate. If I'm long in light winds, flying for best glide ratio might be better. If wind speeds gradually decrease as I descend, the input required will gradually change as well.

You can tell where you are headed by finding the point on the ground that doesn't move up or down (in other words, the angle of a line drawn from you to that point doesn't change, because that line is your flight path - you are flying directly towards that point). Adjust your inputs and re-evaluate. The further away that point is, the better. This will let you find the best input for each situation, rather than use a blanket "half brakes" or "rear risers" rule.

I use this trick on long spots (on all bad spots, actually), and have often easily made it back when people using the "half brakes" or "rear risers" method didn't get anywhere close.


As for the "getting big" thing: try flying down wind in high winds, look up and see if your PC and D-bag are trailing in front of the canopy instead of behind it!

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[kallend 1,623]

Something I wrote about body drag a while back.

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=120238;search_string=drag;#120238

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[grimmie 173]

Looking down in the door, and then freefall usually prevents the need to milk out all you can from your canopy. Pull high.

[elightle 8]

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weren't you also taught to rake up the peas after each crash, er, landing? and to check your apex for a sky view?

Good one! Did you have to remind me I was that old?

[beowulf 1]

Spotting or pulling high is often not an available option on big formations.

[grimmie 173]

Thanks, one more good reason to not do them.

[stayhigh 2]

so can we swoop further if we get BIG with our body when swooping down wind????

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[kallend 1,623]

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Thanks, one more good reason to not do them.

Feel free not to be on any big ways I am on.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kmills0705 0]

Good discussion. Since students tend to talk to each other they usually walk away with the same interpretation of what it is being taught. There is a lot of misinterpretation amongst students; sometimes there is bad information given by Instructors. Neither are good.

Kim Mills
USPA D21696
Tandem I, AFF I and Static Line I

[azureriders 0]

I have not had a chance to speak to one of the instructors yet, but I did talk to another student that had a slightly different testament. She said she was taught to get small when facing into a head wind, and that with a tail wind getting small did not help as much and was not important.

I still disagree and believe that getting small will help in either case, but still this is much better information. I can also see where some one could have misinterpreted this, and then talk to others in the class causing the same misinterpretation.

Good discusion but I honestly believe the lesson to be learned here is that students do indeed misinterpret things and then pass that bad info on to the rest of the class, and not so much that there is group of canopy coaches out there teaching crap.

[beowulf 1]

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Thanks, one more good reason to not do them.

Well if you don't feel comfortable with the added risk that comes with doing large formations then it is a good reason to not do them.

[Psychonaut 0]

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so can we swoop further if we get BIG with our body when swooping down wind????

If not sarcasm, no.
You do a 270 or whatever you want, get up to 50, 60.. I can assure you that is faster than any tailwind you might have.

Stay high pull low

[billvon 2,396]

>You do a 270 or whatever you want, get up to 50, 60.. I can assure
>you that is faster than any tailwind you might have.

So you figure the wind would have to be doing like 50mph before you'd get a tailwind to help push you from behind?

[beowulf 1]

hmm kinda light on the vector math area, don't ya think?

[kallend 1,623]

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I have not had a chance to speak to one of the instructors yet, but I did talk to another student that had a slightly different testament. She said she was taught to get small when facing into a head wind, and that with a tail wind getting small did not help as much and was not important.

I still disagree and believe that getting small will help in either case, but still this is much better information.

Did you read the "geek alert" old post I linked to in post#27 of this thread?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Psychonaut 0]

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>You do a 270 or whatever you want, get up to 50, 60.. I can assure
>you that is faster than any tailwind you might have.

So you figure the wind would have to be doing like 50mph before you'd get a tailwind to help push you from behind?

I'm saying the help from behind would not be enough to counteract the detriment you'd be getting from the 50mph you're going into with a big body

Stay high pull low

[rehmwa 2]

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So you figure the wind would have to be doing like 50mph before you'd get a tailwind to help push you from behind?

I'm saying the help from behind would not be enough to counteract the detriment you'd be getting from the 50mph you're going into with a big body

as funny as you two are being with you, it's gotta be confusing for those that don't get airspeed vs ground winds


unless you are flying the canopy collapsed and backwards, we are ALWAYS flying 'forward into the wind' no matter which direction we're pointing and no matter which direction the ground winds are blowing

(some smartass may also point out that climbing up one set of side risers might cause a side slip - I'm ok with that)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[BobMoore 0]

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I'm saying the help from behind would not be enough to counteract the detriment you'd be getting from the 50mph you're going into with a big body

What help from behind?

"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm saying the help from behind would not be enough to counteract the detriment you'd be getting from the 50mph you're going into with a big body

What help from behind?

there's no help from behind. He's saying that you're always flying forward, therefore getting big is a detriment all the time (applies not matter how fast the ground speed is - even if it's negative)

it's confusing because they all keep referencing ground speed - which has nothing to do with drag - thus talking groundspeed just highlights a lack of understanding the aerodynamics of drag

if we are talking a car or train, then groundspeed matters - too bad, we're talking about flying

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[BobMoore 0]

Are either of those canopy instructors active on DZ.com? It would be interesting if they had something to say about this.

"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."

[kallend 1,623]

I'm going to design a spinnaker that I can tuck in my jumpsuit, to be deployed for those long spot situations when I have a tailwind.

I reckon I can sell them wholesale to canopy coaches, who can then sell them to their students at a modest markup.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wmw999 2,120]

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I'm going to design a spinnaker that I can tuck in my jumpsuit, to be deployed for those long spot situations when I have a tailwind

Isn't that what the wingsuit is for?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 2,396]

>I'm saying the help from behind would not be enough to counteract the
>detriment you'd be getting from the 50mph you're going into with a big
>body.

Sorry, I was being silly. It doesn't help _at_all._ There's no extra push from wind, just the same ol' relative wind your canopy always sees. It doesn't matter what any steady wind is doing until your feet touch the ground, at which point you will notice the _relative_ difference between your airspeed and the ground speed.

[azureriders 0]

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Did you read the "geek alert" old post I linked to in post#27 of this thread?

Yes I did. Let me see if I can give you some back ground on my math skills. In an invitational placement test I tested out of college algebra, trig, and my first physics. I took the first calculus in the mechanical engineering curriculum my freshmen semester at LSU. Two years later I was dropping out and opening a construction company that I still own and operate. I use a lot of trig now, but I have become very very rusty on most other fields. So to the point, I roughly followed most of what you were saying. Good stuff

I am one who grabs a pencil and paper for most things mathematical around the DZ even when most others argue that it is pointless.

In practical trials, while flying relative to another canopy I can definitely notice the difference in closure speed when I get small and arch hard.

I also make most of my jumps with large camera wings, if I do not collapse them under canopy, I am not coming back from anywhere.

[popsjumper 2]

Common sense and logic, folks

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239