Screwed with my Diablo 170?

[OnyxSkyDV 0]

Am I getting screwed here?

Let me set the history for you. I bought a brand new Diablo 170 about 3-4 years ago. Kept indoors, jumped at Eloy over the last few years, only put about 150 jumps on it, and everything was just fine. Soft openings for the most part, nothing that I would call “hard”, easy to pack. Got me down safe everytime.

3 jumps ago I had the most brutal opening of my life. I was flat, and slowed down from our sitfly (I know I have deployed at higher speeds), and when I threw it out, I was yanked into an upright position so hard my biceps were bruised where they were thrown into the main lift webs of my J4 container. The canopy was fine, but it was very disconcerting to have a normally soft opening canopy abuse me like that.

1 week later, 2 more jumps with no issue, and then on my last jump I again had a brutal opening. It felt like it was fully open within half a second, and again I was bruised on my still sore arms. This time it appeared that my right end cell would not open. A control check showed that the tail of the entire right side endcell was ripped open mostly along the seam, but ripping into the cell about 4 inches (maybe a 1.75 foot long rip total)
Which I was able to test flare several times, and fly in for a safe PLF landing. (probably could have stood it up, but wanted to be ready if it did something funny at the last part of the flare)

Now the part where I want to know if I am getting screwed, or just plain S.O.L…..

Aerodyne was bought by a new company, and this Diablo, manufactured in 1999 (I bought stock colors, so it was there for a while before I got it) was from a prior batch of fabric (which I believe that they had problems with) and the new company does not have the same fabric with which to replace the whole panel

Since they don’t make it, they are basically saying “Sorry it only has 150 jumps, but we really are not going to do anything for you”…. They did offer to try and replace the last quarter of the panel with some left over material, but then quoted about $250 for it all, including shipping. As I do not know why I had the hard openings, I am hard pressed to justify that money, with that chance that it may blow up again, and I will be in the same boat I am now.

So I am basically left with a 6.1 cell canopy that I paid $10 per jump to jump infrequently for a few years.

What do you guys think, am I just a victim of bad luck, you rolled the dice and this is what you get, or am I getting fairly poor treatment by the company that is responsible for the quality of my canopy?

Thanks for your input.

OnyxSkyDV

[FrogNog 1]

How do things look from the company's point of view?

How much should a full cell replacement cost?
Are you saying you think you should get that cell replaced under warranty?

This sounds like a friend of mine who purchased two new motorcycles in three years and each time within 500 miles he got a lucky nail in the rear tire. The warranties said "tires get nails sometimes. When they do, that's your problem."

Canopies open hard sometimes and their cells rip open. It's hard to decide why, and therefore whether it's a manufacturing or material defect vs. user error (even unknowable error) or bad luck.

They can support their product but however they do it's going to cost them. How much should it cost them, and how much should it cost you?

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[TALONSKY 0]

I think the company is being fair. They are not the same company as before and they do not make that canopy now but they are offering to fix it. When it comes to skydiving there are quite a few variables that canopy manufacturers have no control over such as: how the canopy was packed, how it was deployed and at what speed it was deployed at. The price sounds about fair to me. I had a canopy I bought second hand that had around 250 jumps on it and the stichting was coming undone, it cost me $90.00 to have it repaired with shipping from the manufacturer (it is just part of life).
Kirk

[Kris 0]

Around $250 is what I paid for a new cell, reline, and a slider after my Stiletto blew up a couple of years back. I think the cell replacement on its own from PD was around $189 at the time.

They basically let me have everything for 1/2 price as mine was a manufacturing defect that didn't show up until I had around 250 jumps on my canopy.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Hooknswoop 19]

Who packed the canopy?

Derek

[OnyxSkyDV 0]

I packed it myself, the same way I had for the previous 150 jumps.

OnyxSkyDV

[OnyxSkyDV 0]

Part of what bothers me is that the person I talked to indicated that in fact there was a batch of fabric that they had problems with, and originally I was quoted only $60 to replace the panel, but after they found it was the old fabric the price changed.

Well thank you for your input, I think I am going to be voting with my wallet, and taking my next purchase to a manufacturer that has been around for a while, who stands behind their product, and is not changing material so that if there is a problem they can fix it easily.

OnyxSkyDV

[AndyMan 7]

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They did offer to try and replace the last quarter of the panel with some left over material, but then quoted about $250 for it all, including shipping.

That is a very reasonable fee for a major repair.

I paid a similar amount to PD for repairs to my Stiletto.

Buck up and pay it, or buy a new canopy. Your choice.

Any canopy can (and will!) open hard.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[diablopilot 2]

It's sounds bad, but "You pays your money, you take your chances".

Unfortunately there is the occurance of orphaned products.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Part of what bothers me is that the person I talked to indicated that in fact there was a batch of fabric that they had problems with

Is there any more of the bad fabric in the canopy? If there is, it is a waste of time and $ to repair it. If not, can they replace it with the newer fabric for the same $60?

Derek

[OnyxSkyDV 0]

Fair enough, I asked for opinions, and I am glad for the responses I got.

I realize it's hard for me to be objective as I have very few jumps on this canopy before it blew up, and that cost is maybe a third of a used canopy. (Seen Stillettos for 500-750 on a regular basis) All it would take is one more blow up, and I would be in a bind all over again.

May just get another used canopy, one that can be repaired more easily.

OnyxSkyDV

[OnyxSkyDV 0]

If it was a part of that batch, I have to assume the whole canopy is of that same flawed fabric. And I concur with your assessment.

Also, I am informed that they can not mix fabrics.

OnyxSkyDV

[mattjw916 2]

I'd just shelve it and buy a used Stilleto or something. Plus the holiday boogie is on the horizon and hopefully PD will have their canopy auction again. In the meantime you can demo tons of stuff from Square2 or request some other cool demos from other manufacturers.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[PhreeZone 14]

The old Aerodyne fabric was the South African farbic that is still in use on at least Atair's canopies. They switched over to using the slick ZP when they reorganized as Aerodyne Int.

I've mixed the fabrics on a repair I had done in the past. Colors were'nt that close but good enough for me.The last batch of bad fabric I've heard of is the batch RiggerRob mentioned occured in the early 90's. I find it hard to believe they would still have fabric that old sitting around to put into a 1999 canopy.

Those $500-700 Stilettos you are seeing are usually high jump number canopies that are due for a reline and possibly have high porisity. They are selling them for that price since thats all they are worth and usually won't last another line set before they are leaky opr ready to be retired.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[wuffo 1]

The "bad fabric" cop out is just that...an absolute cop out. There isn't anything wrong with the fabric, your canopy was damaged from brutal openings. Any fabric would have failed in such a circumstance. As to mixing fabrics for a repair, it can be done with no consequences, they simply don't want to fool with your canopy.

[Kris 0]

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The "bad fabric" cop out is just that...an absolute cop out. There isn't anything wrong with the fabric, your canopy was damaged from brutal openings. Any fabric would have failed in such a circumstance. As to mixing fabrics for a repair, it can be done with no consequences, they simply don't want to fool with your canopy.

Not necessarily true. There were bad batches of Gelvenor fabric that caused problems for manufacturers that used them (such as Aerodyne back in the day and PISA).

Hell, even PD put out canopies with a bad batch of silver ZP that had to be recalled.

It happens.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[base283 0]

It sounds like to me that you had inertial bag strip. I only saw end cell damage due to inadequate stowage of lines. I am not saying this is so. but it smells like it to me. I´ve witnessed easily over 100.000 jumps just so ya know where I´m coming from.. How can a bad batch of material cause 2 unacceptably hard openings in 150 jumps? good material or bad material would still cover the same suface area and decelerate you the same. What did you change? or not change? stowage bands are a likely culprit. I am surprised that no-one else has mentioned this.
take care,
space

[OnyxSkyDV 0]

Nothing has changed recently in materials or methods. This is the same packing method I always use, and I have been on skybands for the last 100 jumps at least.

I have the large bands for the first 2 stows, and the smaller bands on the last 4 stows. This gives me a nice containment of all stows, without needing to double wrap any, nor being loose enough to make me worry about line dump.

Any input is valuable though, I am still trying to come to grasp at what could have caused this.

OnyxSkyDV

[rmsmith 1]

Maybe they'll give a discount toward a new Pilot canopy; have you queried them?

[riggerrob 558]

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It sounds like to me that you had inertial bag strip. I only saw end cell damage due to inadequate stowage of lines.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

On a similar note, we recently had a Diablo 170 in our loft to replace three broken lines after a brutally hard opening.
The owner is not a very good packer.
Hint!
Hint!
The new Aerodyne still sells line kits etc. for "orphaned" canopies (Wildfire, Diablo, etc.), but they are painfully slow on delivery.
Hint!

• Quote

[thepollster 0]

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this Diablo, manufactured in 1999

You are complaining about a canopy 6 (or more) years old tearing? When you bought the canopy, you must have seen the warning that said there is no warranty. Even if there was a warranty, it would have long expired because of time.

Try this: buy a brand new car, only drive it once a month to the corner store. When it is six years old, try and get the manufacturer to warranty a broken part. They will laugh you out of the dealership, and that is with something that was barely used, and did have a warranty, since expired.

Also, I am certain they never approved the canopy to be packed with skybands, so you were not packing properly according to the manual. Get over it.

[CReWLL 0]

The fabric was good enough to handle the first killer opening, so it must not be all that bad. As far as the isolated hard openings; a canopy does not open hard one time and soft the next for no reason. There is no magic in canopy deployments. It was you or your pack job.

[hookitt 0]

I highly doubt inertial bag strip is a culprit. that is blamed far too often. Most people think bag strip is line dump. Line dump makes no difference, bag strip does, however.....

When the slider is only a tiny distance down the lines when the canopy comes out of the bag.. (not against the stops during packing), The bottom skin of the canopy is exposed to the air a little more than it should be. Suddenly there's a high pressure area above the slider It pushes the slider out of the way very rapidly allowing the bottom skin of the canopy to catch air.

riggerrob left a hint hint suggesting packing. The most common error is not ensuring the slider is against the stops before closing the d-bag.

If the canopy opens nicely, it opens nicely. Trim changes will affect opening characteristics but it's most often packing error that will cause a normally nice opening canopy to open in a brutal fashion.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

It sounds like to me that you had inertial bag strip. I only saw end cell damage due to inadequate stowage of lines. I am not saying this is so. but it smells like it to me. I´ve witnessed easily over 100.000 jumps just so ya know where I´m coming from.. How can a bad batch of material cause 2 unacceptably hard openings in 150 jumps? good material or bad material would still cover the same suface area and decelerate you the same. What did you change? or not change? stowage bands are a likely culprit. I am surprised that no-one else has mentioned this.

Have you ever seen video of bag-strip?

I have seen line dump blamed for hard openings, which doesn't cause hard openings. I have seen bag strip blamed for hard openings, which does cause hard openings.

I have seen video of line dump and it always resulted in a normal opening.

I have seen video of hard openings, none of which was caused by bag strip.

I have never seen video of bag strip. You'd think that if it was common, there would be a lot of video of it, but there isn't. I have asked several times if anyone has a video of bag strip, I haven't gotten a response in the affirmative yet.

Bag strip can and has happened, but it is very rare and very difficult to make happen, especially on modern rigs.

Derek

[OnyxSkyDV 0]

Based on the date of manufacture (not the date I bought it) they are unwilling to provide me any type of incentive to move towards a new product of theirs.

Onyx


Maybe they'll give a discount toward a new Pilot canopy; have you queried them?