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tetra316

Radios and student training

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I hope you're not as young as your photo looks, cause you talk just like the oldest skydivers I know



I'm probably not as young as you think but I'm not that old either. :P

I learned with a mix of old and new school trends. But with no radios. Just have some different opinions than some it seems. I posted this in effort to get some other opinions. I'm not saying radios should not be used at all. I do think they are good tool IF used correctly. But too many seem to be using them incorrectly, at least from what I've witnessed at more than one dz.

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>Why does everyone seem to think radios are a necessity today?

They're not, any more than AFF, square main parachutes or AAD's for students are. But they are pretty good ideas.



Student Requirements:
Sim 2009-2010 Section 2-1 K 2 e
Sim 2009-2010 Section 2-1 K 2 d

Personally, I think radios are the best idea...much better than paddles or arrows.

Paddles and arrows depend on the student actually being able to find and see them...not much help for finding the LZ under canopy. Watching paddles and arrows distracts from looking where you are going. With multiple students in the air you should have one set of paddles or one arrow per student and which one is which? Identified by color maybe?

Just like all else, there are good radio Is and not-so-good radio Is. Hopefully, one learns to be one of the good ones. If you have advice on how to be a better one, I'm all ears. I just hope that ALL Is would be listening, too.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I just did my IAF Level 5 (Hover, and second time under canopy alone) at the Ranch (which I understand is notoriously known as a tough place to land, compared to other DZ's) And i'm really glad I had the radio.

The instructors give you not steering turns and detailed instructions, but more like guidance. Like I remember hearing "Looks like the wind is change a bit to X direction, if you give yourself a turn in this direction you should be heading straight for the dz"

So I'd do the turn, and start feeling the change in my direction (I was crabbing to get back) and it really clicked in my head. Like an OHHH, now I get it! I had the theory in my head from the FJC, but having the feeling of it, and somebody just giving me a hint makes a big difference, at least for me. Makes it a lot easier for next time.

Most of the rest was "You're doing great" or "That's the perfect heading, nice!" Or "See your altitude now? Why don't you hang out right there and s-turn a bit there to bleed off some altitude."

It really clicks and feels good to get that bit of help. The rest kinda makes sense, because you're doing it and feeling it. It's like someone backing up what you already know by confirming it over the radio. So far on the radio (which has only been twice) I've gotten mostly nudges, it hasn't felt like I was given directions.

I'm glad we have them.

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I did my SL and AFF at Texel without a radio. Texel has a huge landing area but I still missed it a couple of times (and those cornfields next to it give you a good opportunity to practice your PLFs). :P I never missed a radio, but could have used a hint or two.

I now jump at Zwartberg (Black Mountain, Belgium) where they do use radio for students. I'm going to try it next weekend, because I do miss the dropzone sometimes.

During the SL course at Texel there were typically 10-14 students on the plane. To land all of them on the radio would require as many instructors and radio channels available, which is just silly. At Zwartberg I have seen three students in the air at the same time tops.

And of course, if a student panics and has brain-lock under a high-speed mal you should tell them to cutaway the main! Liability and confusion with other students be damned, if you can save a life you must. Those under a good canopy should be smart enough not to cutaway anyway.

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And of course, if a student panics and has brain-lock under a high-speed mal you should tell them to cutaway the main! Liability and confusion with other students be damned, if you can save a life you must. Those under a good canopy should be smart enough not to cutaway anyway.

What if trying to "save a life" utilizing these methods actually costs a life? This is a good example of well intentioned advice from [edited for political correctness].
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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And of course, if a student panics and has brain-lock under a high-speed mal you should tell them to cutaway the main! Liability and confusion with other students be damned, if you can save a life you must. Those under a good canopy should be smart enough not to cutaway anyway.

What if trying to "save a life" utilizing these methods actually costs a life? This is a good example of well intentioned advice from [edited for political correctness].



It's just my opinion, not advice.

So, let met get this straight; You are concerned that if you tell someone to cutaway the main, the wrong student will respond and die because of it, right? I can agree that this is a risk.

But that is a risk you need to weigh against the risk of the student under the malfunctioning main dying. I think an instructor has experience enough to make that judgment call. Maybe only yell 'cutaway' when all students are up high enough?

What bothers me is that, reading this thread, I get the impression some instructors would sooner let someone die than break their 'don't yell cutaway' rule. I expect instructors to use their judgment, not follow rules to cover their ass.

And [edited for political correctness]? We're called 'beginning skydivers', expect to see a couple more of us.

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And of course, if a student panics and has brain-lock under a high-speed mal you should tell them to cutaway the main! Liability and confusion with other students be damned, if you can save a life you must. Those under a good canopy should be smart enough not to cutaway anyway.

What if trying to "save a life" utilizing these methods actually costs a life? This is a good example of well intentioned advice from [edited for political correctness].


I expect instructors to use their judgment, not follow rules to cover their ass.



The same is expected from students. Use your training and your judgement. Take responsibility. Don't use the instructor on the radio to cover your ass in the event of a mistake. If you can't handle the responsibility, don't jump. This is skydiving not bowling. You could die.

How's that for blunt :P

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I guess I'm different.
I have a million things going on in my head. Just like the first time I took a little 200CC race bike around the track. It was horrible.
Then I was given a head set. And simply being told
"good, good, on track, head up......" really helped me to adjust my body and to focus on the task at hand.

And now that I'll be going back to finish up my AFP I will ask my instructor / radio dude for the same. I felt most comfortable and most aware when I was given data.
A simple "looking good" every 30 seconds can go a very long way for a new guy or gal. Because let's face it not every one is a natural and not every one learns at the same rate.
And don't look at it as "remote control n00b" rather think of it as positive reinforcement of good habits.
A simple "keep your legs together" on final could have really saved me a lot of pain. But now I know...KEEP YOUR FREAKING LEGS TOGETHER ON FINAL!
But the radio would have helped.
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

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I don't think I would have done my 1st jump without a radio. It wasn't like my instructor had to use it much but just knowing it was there, eased my anxiety. I have no shame in using it or admitting that I used one for my first 8 jumps. I learn better when I'm corrected as I'm making the mistake.

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It is easier to correct bad habits in the beginning than to unlearn bad habits later in life or die due to a bad habit.

And the radio is a great tool. Everything from body position to understanding of the flight dynamics.
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

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> You are concerned that if you tell someone to cutaway the main, the
>wrong student will respond and die because of it, right?

Yes, that is a very big risk when there is more than one student in the air.

>What bothers me is that, reading this thread, I get the impression
>some instructors would sooner let someone die than break their 'don't yell
>cutaway' rule.

In effect, yes. We all have to make those decisions. Most instructors would sooner let someone die than chase them below 1000 feet, for example.

One of the issues with the no-cutaway rule is that there is a difference between not preventing someone's death and causing someone's death. We tend to err on the side of not causing death.

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What confuses me, is that in our FJC and Safety Day, we were DRILLED all of the malfunctions and how to initiate emergency procedures. They really tried hard to not only scare the shit out of us, so that it sunk in, but also tried to get us to build muscle memory and react quickly.

Everyone had to sit and do harness training over and over and over until it was like second nature. Even our instructors occasionally quiz us while being briefed for a jump. (and would be pretty upset at us if we performed anything incorrectly by that stage.)

How do some people need to be told to cutaway? It's really beyond me.

I think the training has made it quite clear that your life is in your hands, and yours alone. The radio is by no means an instruction.

Especially if you're up there seeing things the radio guy isn't.

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The radio is by no means an instruction.
BINGO!
It's not "turn, left, turn right, turn left, turn right."
Rather "Remember to look left before you turn left, look right before you turn right....remember to slowly reduce pressure on toggles to prevent surging forward too fast. Remember body position...."

It's all about building "GOOD" habits and the radio not only provides a reassuring voice but helps to inbed that voice in the student head.
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

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>What bothers me is that, reading this thread, I get the impression
>some instructors would sooner let someone die than break their 'don't yell
>cutaway' rule.

In effect, yes. We all have to make those decisions. Most instructors would sooner let someone die than chase them below 1000 feet, for example.



Well, yes. I'd expect anyone to put their own survival first. Better be sorry than dead.

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One of the issues with the no-cutaway rule is that there is a difference between not preventing someone's death and causing someone's death. We tend to err on the side of not causing death.



That distinction would not help me sleep any better at night... but I do understand your point.

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The same is expected from students. Use your training and your judgement. Take responsibility. Don't use the instructor on the radio to cover your ass in the event of a mistake. If you can't handle the responsibility, don't jump. This is skydiving not bowling. You could die.

How's that for blunt :P



Oh, I agree with you there.

But I guess sometimes even people who can't handle it end up under a canopy. If a radio is a good tool to wake them up, get a grip on things again, I say use it.

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The radio is by no means an instruction.
BINGO!
It's not "turn, left, turn right, turn left, turn right."
Rather "Remember to look left before you turn left, look right before you turn right....remember to slowly reduce pressure on toggles to prevent surging forward too fast. Remember body position...."

It's all about building "GOOD" habits and the radio not only provides a reassuring voice but helps to inbed that voice in the student head.


This is one way to do it. Another way to do it is to only use the radio to correct. No news is good news. Unless the radio's dead, but the student should not rely on radio corrections anyway, so he should still think for himself. What method to be used depends on the role of the radio, is it a learning tool or is it a safety device? I really don't have an opinion in the matter, but I'm curious what other people (everyone from students to experienced instructors) think the role of the radio is.

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Look guy guys have thousands of jumps under your belt.
For the n00bs...all news is good news.
We are winging it, trying to remember what we were told and what we think is right.
So a simple good...good...good...on the right track....would do wonders for a new guy/girls confidence.
And as always remember it's easier to unlearn a mistake early then to try to unlearn it when its too late.
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

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You seem to have very strong opinions as to what instructors should or shouldn't do. A little surprising coming from someone with very little experience and no instructor ratings.


I'm relating what I would like to hear while in the air to what i was told while on the race track for the very first time. A simple "your doing good" every 30 seconds or so really does give the n00b a good warm and fuzzy feeling.

Maybe you guys don't remember or are super macho but it's scary up there the first few times. And being scared is not always a good thing.
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

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>How do some people need to be told to cutaway? It's really beyond me.

Here's one example:

Student of mine had a PC over the nose. Our instruction on that was "canopy control check, if it flies OK keep it, gentle turns only." He did the control check; all was well.

He hit some really bad turbulence and the canopy partially collapsed at about 3000 feet. When it reinflated the PC bridle was bowtying the main. We had covered turbulence but I had never mentioned "afterwards look up and see if your canopy is still OK."

I saw this from the ground (well, saw that something odd had happened to his canopy) and the guy with the radio saw it as well. He told the jumper "Hey, Ben, take a look at your canopy and take action if you need to." About ten seconds later he cut away.

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Hey shah269, did you notice I was not responding to you?


Sorry my bad.
But what do you guys think of continuous consistent feed back to the student so as to develop their own monologue?
I know as a student I would like it and will be asking for it this season.
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

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Look guy guys have thousands of jumps under your belt.
For the n00bs...all news is good news.
We are winging it, trying to remember what we were told and what we think is right.
So a simple good...good...good...on the right track....would do wonders for a new guy/girls confidence.
And as always remember it's easier to unlearn a mistake early then to try to unlearn it when its too late.


Just for the record, I don't have thousands of jumps :)
Like I wrote earlier, I don't have an opinion about radio/no radio or what the radio should be used for. I'm just curious what other people think. Not having a radio worked for me and many others. That said, it might not be The Best Way.

I see problems in not having a radio, e.g. not being able to give advice that might save the life of a student. I don't think a radio should be needed, but maybe it's a good backup (kind of like having an AAD even though you shouldn't need one, though that analogy might be somewhat flawed)?

I see problems in having a radio, e.g. confusing the student, making things worse. Therefore it might be better to keep the radio chatter at a minimal level and only issuing corrections? Or maybe, as you suggested, use the radio to give the student positive reinforcement during his descent? I really don't know :)

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> You are concerned that if you tell someone to cutaway the main, the wrong student will respond and die because of it, right?>
Yes, that is a very big risk when there is more than one student in the air.

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+1
Be leery to say “cutaway” on the radio when multiple students are in the air on a single channel. You may be overlooking a student who is below 1,000 feet and they follow the command of “cutaway” that you have intended for a different student.
I have seen this happen and luckily the student had just enough altitude to make it uninjured – just barely.
If you have spent any time working on a one frequency set-up you will know that often times when it makes no sense, students will follow commands intended for other students. And besides, if you have preformed a quality service in ground training then you should be confident that the person you trained knows what to do in the event of a malfunction.
We never put a student into the air are until they are completely ready to safely make a jump right?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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