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kkeenan

Advice Frustration

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It is interesting to note the (seemingly) growing militancy of low-time jumpers who receive advice from more experienced jumpers. The "Hundred-Jump Wonder" is certainly not new. For many years there have been folks at that level who feel that they have mastered the sport and have nothing new to learn. In the past, however, they seem to have at least listened with the idea that, "Hey - this guy is trying to tell me something that could save my life". Lately, not so much.

I guess the fact is that with modern equipment, a person can really be a pretty incompetent, dumbass in skydiving and still survive. They actually can ignore most of the advice, be saved by various back-up devices, and still convince themselves that it is their Mad Skilz that have saved the day.

I have nothing but respect for the experienced jumpers who patiently put up with the bullshit feedback from these WonderBoys who have an excuse for every fuckup and a rationalization for ignoring guidelines that many of our friends died to establish. You can employ all the wisdom and good judgment possible, and still die in this sport, yet some treat it as no more hazardous than skateboarding - right up to the moment they're eating high-speed dirt.

Kevin Keenan
Florida
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

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meh - it's the culture change

kids are handed life on a platter and, instead of being taught competition and striving and work, they are shored up in self esteem without reason. Rather than earning self esteem through their actions.

How much lately have you heard kids still call adults sir or ma'am lately? or call their parents by the first name, or argue or interrupt because they consider themselves the center of the universe. It's because they are taught, without accomplishing anything in their lives to date, that they are equals to everyone that has accomplishments.

I know families where the parents do their kids' homework for craps sake just because it's easier than arguing with the kids.

Is it surprising that they ignore, or even treat with dismay, any opinion that doesn't shore up their little egos?

(devil's advocate - I'm putting out a pretty extremely and harshly worded version of a legitimate viewpoint)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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It is interesting to note the (seemingly) growing militancy of low-time jumpers who receive advice from more experienced jumpers.



Kevin, I'm pretty sure that some of that is because of the way they are being told (admonished!)

It takes quite a bit of thought and time to post a message that informs but does not preach, and some of the experienced jumpers are not taking the time. (Maybe they don't have the time, but are squeezing it in the best they can.)

Plus, you know how the written word often fails to express the true meaning whereas a phone call or personal conversation works much better. (I invite people to call, but then, I am sitting in my home office "wasting" no one's time but my own.)

And then there's the internet factor....

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Two words - coach rating



Are you noting it's the problem or the solution?

Problem - giving away an "instructor" status at such a potentially infantile time in the sport shores up egos for those that haven't earned it?

Solution - provide a organized means of training via the newbie coaches that "should" be trained to help or at least find the right kind of help for even newer jumpers

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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I blame technology and society.

First, technology had made it to where you now have to make a serious of mistakes to have an accident. Break the chain ad you are fine.

Second, it's just another example of the purification of America. Recently I saw a great video spoof of someone telling a student they cannot demo a velo cuz they will die. When they persist they break it down calling out their experience and shitty skills. Yes, thats a spoof, but we all know its based on reality. The pussification of modern society is ridiculous and it has certainly crossed over to skydiving.

Now, should we say exactly what we mean? No. I dont mean that at all and I am not trying to get into teaching and psychology here. The problem is if someone gets their feelings hurt there are usually at least 3 other people that run to their defense and tell them its going to be ok and it wasnt that big of a deal and makes the situation worse by offering th wrong enforcement.
"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

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It is interesting to note the (seemingly) growing militancy of low-time jumpers who receive advice from more experienced jumpers. The "Hundred-Jump Wonder" is certainly not new. For many years there have been folks at that level who feel that they have mastered the sport and have nothing new to learn. In the past, however, they seem to have at least listened with the idea that, "Hey - this guy is trying to tell me something that could save my life". Lately, not so much.

I guess the fact is that with modern equipment, a person can really be a pretty incompetent, dumbass in skydiving and still survive. They actually can ignore most of the advice, be saved by various back-up devices, and still convince themselves that it is their Mad Skilz that have saved the day.

I have nothing but respect for the experienced jumpers who patiently put up with the bullshit feedback from these WonderBoys who have an excuse for every fuckup and a rationalization for ignoring guidelines that many of our friends died to establish. You can employ all the wisdom and good judgment possible, and still die in this sport, yet some treat it as no more hazardous than skateboarding - right up to the moment they're eating high-speed dirt.

Kevin Keenan
Florida



Read "Shop craft as Soulcraft" I believe it is a cultural thing the book is very interesting.

Modern men and women have been stripped of responsibility to the point that I believe most people are simply incapable of comprehending that THEY are responsible for their own lives. They drive cars with ABS, traction control, automatic gear change, engine warning lights etc, if it goes wrong it is never "their fault". We are no longer exposed to the consequences of our actions and so lack the ability to make meaningful judgements. We are educated to believe that we can "buy" judgement and responsibility - so we buy skyhooks, and AAD's and Audible's so that we can swoop like a pro by having the right equipment. In modern life there is largely no "blame" or accountability it is becoming a shared and abstract concept.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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Two words - coach rating



Are you noting it's the problem or the solution?

Problem - giving away an "instructor" status at such a potentially infantile time in the sport shores up egos for those that haven't earned it?

Solution - provide a organized means of training via the newbie coaches that "should" be trained to help or at least find the right kind of help for even newer jumpers


More often than not, Problem.

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I am a 200 jump wonder, Coach, and Radio operator at my dz. I listen to advice from you (meaning more experienced) jumpers, both at my dz, and on here. I don't mind being treated like I'm ignorant, just don't treat me like a child. I am a grown man, and have the ability to comprehend complex subjects. Don't tell me I can't comprehend the gravity of a decision because I haven't seen one of my friends go in. Believe it or not, I can understand the aerodynamic differences between square and elliptical planforms, the importance of drilling EP's, and the importance of correct wing loading. When someone chooses to disregard sound advice, it doesn't make them a child, just bull headed. The difference between me and alot of others is I can filter out the dick-headedness and still catch the advice. Some people, though, need better delivery. ;)

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama

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meh - it's the culture change

kids are handed life on a platter and, instead of being taught competition and striving and work, they are shored up in self esteem without reason. Rather than earning self esteem through their actions.

How much lately have you heard kids still call adults sir or ma'am lately? or call their parents by the first name, or argue or interrupt because they consider themselves the center of the universe. It's because they are taught, without accomplishing anything in their lives to date, that they are equals to everyone that has accomplishments.

I know families where the parents do their kids' homework for craps sake just because it's easier than arguing with the kids.

Is it surprising that they ignore, or even treat with dismay, any opinion that doesn't shore up their little egos?

(devil's advocate - I'm putting out a pretty extremely and harshly worded version of a legitimate viewpoint)



I think I love you.:P
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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meh - it's the culture change

kids are handed life on a platter and, instead of being taught competition and striving and work, they are shored up in self esteem without reason. Rather than earning self esteem through their actions.

How much lately have you heard kids still call adults sir or ma'am lately? or call their parents by the first name, or argue or interrupt because they consider themselves the center of the universe. It's because they are taught, without accomplishing anything in their lives to date, that they are equals to everyone that has accomplishments.

I know families where the parents do their kids' homework for craps sake just because it's easier than arguing with the kids.

Is it surprising that they ignore, or even treat with dismay, any opinion that doesn't shore up their little egos?

(devil's advocate - I'm putting out a pretty extremely and harshly worded version of a legitimate viewpoint)



I think I love you.:P


Me too. Could not have said it better myself, and I am not that old.

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meh - it's the culture change

kids are handed life on a platter and, instead of being taught competition and striving and work, they are shored up in self esteem without reason. Rather than earning self esteem through their actions.

How much lately have you heard kids still call adults sir or ma'am lately? or call their parents by the first name, or argue or interrupt because they consider themselves the center of the universe. It's because they are taught, without accomplishing anything in their lives to date, that they are equals to everyone that has accomplishments.

I know families where the parents do their kids' homework for craps sake just because it's easier than arguing with the kids.

Is it surprising that they ignore, or even treat with dismay, any opinion that doesn't shore up their little egos?

(devil's advocate - I'm putting out a pretty extremely and harshly worded version of a legitimate viewpoint)

Quote



While I understand that this post is 'generalizing' youngsters in the sport, this is not always the case. How do I know? I am a youngster skydiver both in age and experience, but I can say with confidence that this does not describe me or many of my young jumper clique.

I was not handed life on a plate...I have worked my ass off for everything. I'm still working my ass off, trying to finish my masters degree while working 2 other jobs.

As far as ignoring advice in skydiving, it doesn't happen. I'm smart enough to understand the status of my infancy in this sport, and will listen to more experienced people when they tell me things. Is it because I'm a female and don't have surges of testosterone telling me that I'm a badass? I can't say.

I could go on, but my point is while there are people my age that might be jackasses, there are also people who value advice and suggestions.

So, all you experience people out there, please don't get tired of the jerkoffs and decide to stop giving advice to the next person that comes along. Please continue to help the younger people because you will find some that will literally value your opinions. On that note, I really am grateful for those who have taken the time to help me. :)

And for the record: the appropriate ranking of cool modes of transportation is jet pack, hover board, transporter, Batmobile, and THEN giant ant.
D.S. #8.8

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meh - it's the culture change

kids are handed life on a platter and, instead of being taught competition and striving and work, they are shored up in self esteem without reason. Rather than earning self esteem through their actions.

How much lately have you heard kids still call adults sir or ma'am lately? or call their parents by the first name, or argue or interrupt because they consider themselves the center of the universe. It's because they are taught, without accomplishing anything in their lives to date, that they are equals to everyone that has accomplishments.

I know families where the parents do their kids' homework for craps sake just because it's easier than arguing with the kids.

Is it surprising that they ignore, or even treat with dismay, any opinion that doesn't shore up their little egos?

(devil's advocate - I'm putting out a pretty extremely and harshly worded version of a legitimate viewpoint)



I'd say this began in the early 50's and 60's (post depression era) as I know those who are "babyboomers" who behave just as badly (sometimes worse) as any of the younger generations....

it is a sense of entitlement, it comes from having to do very little to have a whole lot.
"A man only gets in life what he is believing for, nothing more and nothing less" Kenneth Hagen

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So, all you experience people out there, please don't get tired of the jerkoffs and decide to stop giving advice to the next person that comes along. Please continue to help the younger people because you will find some that will literally value your opinions. On that note, I really am grateful for those who have taken the time to help me.



It's not that there are even that many of the assholes, it's just they are so flippin loud......


It' people like you that make skydiving instruction worth it. :)
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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I'm sure there are more than a few of you very experienced/long-time jumpers that would say I am part of the problem...

My up bringing was quite strict... always addressing elders by "sir and ma'am", friends parents by their last names etc... Parents were separated at a very young age. Lived primarily with my mom in slummed apartments and low cost neighborhoods. Thankfully my parents and grandparents instilled in me the virtues of respect, indomitable spirit and the importance of setting and achieving ones goals.

I have seen a fair amount of death... I have had more than one life die in my hands... I have yet to find the easiest way to accept this... but it has taught me that life is much to valuable to fall by the wayside.

Many of us take something special from the experience of skydiving. For me it is many things... It is feeling full of life. It is my meditation. It is my excitement. It is my relaxation.

I can not speak for "the youth" of our sport as I am older than many of you might think .... but I think most of the answers to the OP's post have been answered above by both sides. The internet certainly clouds our interpretation of others point of view allowing us to see what we want to see or not want to see. Sure there are some that may be "unwilling" to heed advice, but there may also an equal number of those with the perception of that which doesn't hold to be true.

Life is best lived in person... -Josh
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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meh - it's the culture change. kids are handed life on a platter and, instead of being taught competition and striving and work, they are shored up in self esteem without reason. Rather than earning self esteem through their actions.
How much lately have you heard kids still call adults sir or ma'am lately? or call their parents by the first name, or argue or interrupt because they consider themselves the center of the universe. It's because they are taught, without accomplishing anything in their lives to date, that they are equals to everyone that has accomplishments.



Bill, people have been saying that about younger generations for thousands of years.

We live in a decaying age. Young people no longer respect their parents. They are rude and impatient. They frequently inhabit taverns and have no self-control."
-Inscription on a 6,000-year-old Egyptian tomb.

"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets, inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"
-Plato, 4th Century B.C.

"The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint ... As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behaviour and dress."
-Peter the Hermit, AD 1274

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In the past, however, they seem to have at least listened with the idea that, "Hey - this guy is trying to tell me something that could save my life". Lately, not so much.



It seems that a lot of the "old timers" like to make this generalization. It may be true to some extent but it is not so cut and dry as you seem to want to make it.

I have heard many stories from older skydivers and the stupid shit they did when they started that went against the advice of other more experienced people at the time. Just read the thread "scary stories from the old days".

In a recent thread, a well known and very experienced skydiver made this statement.

"I count 5 fatalities this year already related to canopy/winds/landing. Are we ever gonna learn anything?".

This same person, after 20 years of skydiving, had a horrendous landing accident that left him very badly injured. I guess he didn't listen to the advice of others. (/sarcasm)

I don't think it is as easy as saying "there are more stupid people today" or "people don't listen to advice today like they did than 30 years ago". Technology has just made it easier to know about these people and as you get older your perception changes.

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We were (almost) all wonder boys in our day. It seems quaint now, but I remember when I bought a 225' 7 cell canopy (wingloaded at about .8) with a little over 50 jumps. "You'll kill yourself under that little thing" was what I was told by the old boys.
Then I got a 195 Monarch at 200 jumps (wingload about 1/1) and was talked to again.
Anyone who thinks these "new newbs" are any different than we were has a failing memory or just can't see their own "excuse for every fuckup and a rationalization for ignoring guidelines that many of our friends died to establish."
I'm not saying that we should let them go, as I've said a few INSENSITIVE things to people over the years, just saying that this is all part of the normal state of life. Nothing new for this generation.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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So, all you experience people out there, please don't get tired of the jerkoffs and decide to stop giving advice to the next person that comes along. Please continue to help the younger people because you will find some that will literally value your opinions. On that note, I really am grateful for those who have taken the time to help me.




In all reality there are more like YOU than the other extreme, it's just that the ones NOT being pragmatic and safe regarding their approach get noticed more often.

I'm not a 'coach' by rating but I quite often will spend an entire day jumping with 'n00bs', assisting in raising their skill levels and just having fun. It's the enthusiasm I take from them that makes it worth the time & effort.

Easily 80% are humble and eager to learn, they appreciate someone taking the time to explain what & why when something doesn't go to plan.

The other 20% fall into the category this thread is callin' out, they only hear what fits into their preconceived perception
and tend disregard anything less than warm & fuzzy. They blame other factors for their failure and/or come up with some often amazing justifications regarding inept performance.

I believe the 'old guy' frustration has always been there toward the 20%, but because the way the sport grows now...there are more 20%'ers and less 'old guys', so at times it seems the trend is a bit overwhelming.

I just love taking a person with 50 jumps, letting THEM plan the dive and call the shots, and when it's debrief time having them say "I know I screwed that up, how do I fix it."

Those people can & will learn.

The ones that have an immediate excuse may also learn, but it'll be the 'hard' way.

So look around you coaches, instructors and fellow mentors...there are still a lot of the 'good ones' in the crowd that need your help.

Don't lets the frustration from the squeaky wheel minority color your overall view.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I was just going to post the same sentiment. Lots more new jumpers listen than don't. And from experience I can tell you this, some of the stupidest shit I have ever seen with my own two eyes has been done by 1,000+ jump wonders.:P

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I understand your frustration. OTOH it's to us with years of experience, accumulated knowledge and qualifications to not let go and continue to provide clear, well thought and complete explanations. We have to trust the common sense of the readers who can make the difference between straight, honest and serious answers versus empty shell or joke type answers. After a while, we know who is OK. Since error is human, when I put a post on this forum, I can totally missed the point sometimes.
We also don't have to forget that this forum is an exchange of point of view media. This forum is quite unique and free for all and it's normal that some people with little knowledge try to make their point. Several of them are sincere while some ones have a questionable approach.

And after all we know for a long time that a skydiver having a :
A license: is proud and looking forward to learn more
B licence: knows everything in the world about skydiving
C license: starts to understand that there is still many things to learn and to master
D license: is happy to still be alive after so many adventures in the sky
Thanks for expressing your feelings, you are right but we don't have to give up.B|

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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