Racer Reserve Speedbag/Freebag Hangups

[koppel 3]

Wondering if anyone else has had any issues with the new speedbag from Jump Shack. I work on a small DZ with a larger number of Racers than other rigs and the last two 2K3's I have repacked have had the lines come out of the stows freely but the stowbands have not easily come out of the top flap. The first released on one side only the second held shut on both sides and needed considerable force for the top flap to release.

The first was also used in a low speed cut-away a couple of weeks after the repack and when the freebag was retreived the stowbands were still holding half the bag shut. The canopy had cleared the bag and deployed cleanly however.

I spoke to Jump Shack and they said they were not able to duplicate this effet when they designed the speedbag even when they tried to apparantly.

Has anyone else come across this issue?

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[riggerrob 558]

What size of rubber bands are you using?

[koppel 3]

Bands used are those supplied by PD with their reserves.

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[RMURRAY 1]

Quote

Bands used are those supplied by PD with their reserves.

what does PD have to do with the rig. shouldn't you be using the MIL spec rubber bands that JumpShack requires (or at least I think they require them).

rm

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Bands used are those supplied by PD with their reserves.

PD doesn't supply rubber bands with their reserves.

Derek

[koppel 3]

you are of course correct regards PD not supplying bands with their reserves. I use those supplied with the canopy by the dealer who is a dealer for Jump Shack and PD and is also holds a current Australian Riggers Rating. He assures me that the bands that he supplies with them comply with Mil-Spec R1832.

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[CReWLL 0]

The hang-ups described have nothing to do with the rubber band supplier. Please stay on task with this thread.

[freeflymat 0]

Packing a Racer 2008 model for the 3rd time, and during the test of the reserve bag extraction forces, was extemely surprised by the amount of force required to extract the reserve from the free bag. Walked the rig out full line stretch, then the force stopped me, thought O.K, not walking it out quick enough. Tried again the scale hit 60 kgs 130 lbs before it released from the freebag, one side still closed on the freebag. Jump Shack states that the P.C will produce 190 lbs of force at terminal, I wouldn't have wanted this rig on my back if I had to get out of a plane due to structural failure low an dirty !!
Rig has never been chopped, 1 owner , all rubber bands still as new as the day he bought the rig.
Thoughts ????

weather holds make me hungry!

[popsjumper 2]

What I'm not grasping is the big picture of Racers in general.

One reads of so many problems and complaints about Racers yet people still buy and jump them.

What's the other side of the coin?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

One reads of so many problems and complaints about Racers yet people still buy and jump them

Only if one keeps retelling and perpetuating stories they heard from someones sisters brother cousin who had a friend who had a friend who had a Racer from 1980. Or from people who don't actually own and jump a modern day Racer. Talk to a Racer owner and you will find that your statement, while it may be your opinion, is not factual. Kind of like that "my reality ,your reality" thing.

To freeflymatt, on the speedbag testing: have you watched the video on the manufacturer recommended way to test the speedbag? Your question(s) about the bag is addressed in the video.The video can be seen HERE

Video of a subterminal reserve deployment using the freebag can be seen Here.


Link to the Jump Shack videos page can be found HERE

The Airforce Academy actually uses speedbags on some of their student mains(yes I mean mains). If you have any questions I suggest you contact Jump Shack as they are more than happy to answer any of your questions and share any of the tips they have on the use of their system.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Unstable 8]

Quote

What I'm not grasping is the big picture of Racers in general.

One reads of so many problems and complaints about Racers yet people still buy and jump them.

What's the other side of the coin?

I'm a Jumpshack Dealer (not very 'active') but I just sold a 2k3 this week ~ absolutely fantastic rig. Lu has some good points ~ I hear BS about Racers every now and then, but the stuff I hear is stuff that someone saw on a 1995 Racer which could be applied to any 1995 rig.
And reserve pin protection? None better.

=========Shaun ==========

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Quote

What I'm not grasping is the big picture of Racers in general.

One reads of so many problems and complaints about Racers yet people still buy and jump them.

What's the other side of the coin?

I'm a Jumpshack Dealer (not very 'active') but I just sold a 2k3 this week ~ absolutely fantastic rig. Lu has some good points ~ I hear BS about Racers every now and then, but the stuff I hear is stuff that someone saw on a 1995 Racer which could be applied to any 1995 rig.
And reserve pin protection? None better.

For those of us in the audience, do you have any insight on the comments in post #8 re: the 2008 model the poster was referring to (either the 2008 model generally and/or the specific rig he was handling)?

[Unstable 8]

Quote

For those of us in the audience, do you have any insight on the comments in post #8 re: the 2008 model the poster was referring to (either the 2008 model generally and/or the specific rig he was handling)?

Do I have any knowledge of that specific rig? No, we are in different states, time zones, et cetera. All I can say is that this isn't the first time we've seen this discussed, and as Lou Posted, the method for testing the reserve deployment to simulate accurately is HeRe .

I would Ask of Friend here his methods for testing...

=========Shaun ==========

[likestojump 3]

Quote

And reserve pin protection? None better.

How much better is it than a Reflex or Teardrop ?

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Quote

For those of us in the audience, do you have any insight on the comments in post #8 re: the 2008 model the poster was referring to (either the 2008 model generally and/or the specific rig he was handling)?

Do I have any knowledge of that specific rig? No, we are in different states, time zones, et cetera. All I can say is that this isn't the first time we've seen this discussed, and as Lou Posted, the method for testing the reserve deployment to simulate accurately is HeRe .

I would Ask of Friend here his methods for testing...

OK; then, as I had suggested, any thoughts on the 2008 model generally, in light of that post #8? (Again, just an open-minded question from the peanut gallery)

[pchapman 261]

Sticking to the subject rather than getting into the usual "Racer sucks / Racer rocks" debate:

LouDiamond linked to Jump Shack's "speedbag floor test.wmv" video.

My interpretation of Jump Shack's point:
======
During ground tests the last elastic may tend to hang up with a little force, so that the canopy easily pulls out of the bag with the one side of the flap hung up. So the idea is that the flap should easily pop open, but if it is even easier for the canopy to extract without the last elastic clearing the flap, then it is perfectly OK.

The elastic hangs up only because it flips & twists as the lines are pulled out of it, so it is a little wide. The twisty elastic against the fabric of the flap does cause a little drag.

In any actual use, rather than in very slow speed walking-down-the-room situation on the ground, the elastics will pull out of the bag on both sides.
=======

So all the above can be debated either way.

Compared to what we are used to, it is odd to see an asymmetrical situation when the bag comes off the canopy, and to have elastics hang up on a flap. We're used to bungees (for reserves) or elastics (for mains) through smooth metal grommets. So even having a couple pounds of friction holding a fully fabric flap closed is unexpected.


The original post, however, described situations which don't match what Jump Shack expects according to the video.

a) The ground example. The question is, what is the "considerable force" needed to open the flap of the one tested on the ground? Jump Shack might argue that even in a zero speed cutaway, the necessary forces to open the flap will be generated without any delay.

b) The air example. Despite actual use, the flap opened on one side only. Does the bag come off easily and cleanly enough that the asymmetric nature of it isn't a problem? The situation still would be worrying to skydivers, and not in line with what was expected in the Jump Shack video.

Edit: And then there's post #8 about taking 60kgs to open a bag on the ground. Is the flap over the knots at the base of the elastics? What was the force actually being applied to, what is catching or adding friction?

[riggerrob 558]

That sounds like a parlor trick.

There are many different ways to "table total" many different rigs, malfunctions that simple do not happen in high speed air.

For example, the "table cloth" trick demonstrated on "Myth Busters" TV show last night.

[riggerrob 558]

"

Quote

Packing a Racer 2008 model ... the scale hit 60 kgs 130 lbs before it released from the freebag, one side still closed on the freebag. Jump Shack states that the P.C will produce 190 lbs of force at terminal, ...

........................................................................

That's weird ... because MIL SPEC rubber bands are supposed to break at 40 pounds.

[JohnSherman 1]

What everyone is missing is the fact that the table or floor acts as a holding hand during a run out of a bag and canopy deployment on the ground. Observation can only be made if the bag hits nothing but air. If it bounces off the ground the ground and the bounce will bias the dynamics and the observation. Note the video on our web site referded to by Scott is of Peter doing the run out. At no time until after the canopy is out of the bag does anything hit the ground. Notice how the bag spins and jumps. If the ground or a table were to be encountered it would abate the total force and disrupt the sequence.
As to only one side opening this is normal as the canopy will follow the path of least resistance during extraction. It is only necessary for one side to open for the canopy to excape.
The Air Force Academy was experiencing some 15 mal/year out of some 850 jumps. They made their own Speed Bags with our permission and reduced their mals the first and second year to ZERO. They had one in the 3rd year of testing which the Speed bag had nothing to do with.
We all use Speed Bags on our mains and have for over 10 years. If you want to learn about them I suggest you do the same. If you do you will be putting one on your reserve after you see the difference.

[koppel 3]

I am not sure I understand the dynamics/physics of how or why it being pulled along the floor would make a difference however I pack a reasonable number of Racers here and will try your methods the next few I do.

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[JohnSherman 1]

Remember the other system with the pouch and bungee stow will perform much different from the Speed Bag. This difference is the little dance a bag with rubber bands does as each stow releases in turn. First one side then the other. This dance was wrongly dissed by some folks in the early years and vestiges of this mistake still exist in some peoples minds. The wobbles are good. They accelerate the mass toward "speed" a little bit at each wobble. Remember that "Snatch" is the acceleration of the mass to speed. If "Speed is acquired suddenly then the force is more concentrated and noticeable. If "Speed" is acquired gradually then the negative acceleration is gradual. Softer smoother openings.
The Velcro pouch only requires 12 pounds of force to eject all of the lines at once. The Velcro is in peel. The Bungee stow was found unable to maintain a balanced release force left to right, in test done many years ago for PIA by Bob Nixon From Relative Workshop and myself. We found the force could not be maintained or was it predictable because there is no mechanism to keep the two grommets separated.
The recorded forces were in the neighborhood of 12 pounds on one side and 5 pounds on the other. 5 pounds will not retain the stow during deployment. Creating a potential for Line dump. Flat on the ground this all works smooth and that is the problem.

[freeflymat 0]

Hi guys awake again, yes I did watch all the vids available before I performed this test, and I simulated the test as close as possible to this. After I walked it out the first time, not expecting such force it stopped me in my tracks. So restowed the lines had a good look at what was happening at the mouth of the freebag, yes two of the knots where the rubber band attatches were above the flap. Walked the rig out a second time expecting a bit of force, thats when the scale hit 60 kgs.
Spoke to Nancy from J/S she did alleviate most of my concerns, the majority of my repacks are yes on the most common type of freebag where very little resistance is required to extract the reserve. Whilst the Racer does require more force, she assured me it was well within all the TSO requirements. If anyone needs tips on packing these she directed me to Jump Shack DVD Packing Manual on dvd or available on youtube http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=D7A8E65FC2EFAF21&playnext=1&v=EeHbo5lsKLI
Now back to packing.
p.s she did mention, although they had simulated reserve deployments with the knot above and below the freebag flap. She suggested that the knot remain below and only the rubber band pass through the eye in the flap.

weather holds make me hungry!

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Quote

One reads of so many problems and complaints about Racers yet people still buy and jump them

Only if one keeps retelling and perpetuating stories they heard from someones sisters brother cousin who had a friend who had a friend who had a Racer from 1980. Or from people who don't actually own and jump a modern day Racer. Talk to a Racer owner and you will find that your statement, while it may be your opinion, is not factual. Kind of like that "my reality ,your reality" thing..

Well, LouD, you misread my question as a statement of opinion. I have none...I was simply asking for yours.

It's the frequency of publicly propounded concerns that has raised my curiosity.

Your input about the re-telling, the hand-me-down stories, etc. very well may be what's going on.

Then again, it may not be, I don't know for sure either way.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Observation can only be made if the bag hits nothing but air

What about some of the main/reserve entanglement videos we've seen online? There are a handful of them out there where the PC and freebag are launched into a malfunctioning main, and the only reason the reserve ever gets out it becasue of the ease of extraction.

What happens when the freebag hit other things like lines or main canopy while trying to deploy? Won't these things act like a 'holding hand' in that case, and inhibit the deployment?

Let's remember that the idea of the freefbag is that the reserve can easily escape and the bag/PC can then depart. In the case of a standard reserve deployment, where the freebag does indeed hit nothing but air, the fact that the lines are stowed and bag locked shut allows for a clean deployment with a velcro free stow pocket. Virtually every reserve deployment in the last 20+ years proves that theory as correct.

When you get into 'unusual circumstances', such as a reserve deploying into a main or components of a main canopy, that's where you need the canopy to be easily extracted, without the proviso that it 'touches nothing but air'. The canopy should come out of the bag no matter what it touches, and in fact if there is anything there for the canopy to touch, it's that much more critical that it comes out because something is very wrong.

I would like to note that I am not anti-Racer, just anti-speedbag for reserve canopies. The majority of my jumps were on Racers, and they always performed very well for me (all were built pre-speedbag).

[skydiverek 55]

Quote

Quote

Observation can only be made if the bag hits nothing but air

What about some of the main/reserve entanglement videos we've seen online? There are a handful of them out there where the PC and freebag are launched into a malfunctioning main, and the only reason the reserve ever gets out it becasue of the ease of extraction.

Like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpOCsQCKi7I