Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not?

[DSE 3]

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IMO this would cure a large problem and make it an official recommendation!

It already is an "official recommendation."
And one unlikely to change.

[ridestrong 1]

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Ok, This is my recommendation!

People are jumping a go-pro or contour without the required magical 200 jumps, it happens on a lot of DZ's

We must all agree that the SIM is a little outdated...Or not!

But how about a remedy to the situation? why not make it 100 jumps and have an experienced camera flyer or coach go with and instruct and watch someone that would like to fly a small camera setup such as the go-pro or contour? Have a debriefing and recommend to or not until such person is said to meet the requirements to use such a device and until they learn and apply the potential dangers and hazards associated with them are they aloud to use this device, along with having a rigger and S&TA sign off on! IMO this would cure a large problem and make it an official recommendation!

I have heard new jumpers say "i will bang out another 150 or so hop n" pops and then I can use my new camera and a wingsuit together @ the same time!"

where is the instruction and training?

Oh that's right the SIM

We all know that it takes time but how about time and a little instruction?

I think that this might cure some rambunctious behavior and keep some folks satisfied at the same time!

Just my opinion!

Dude this is what I think about that.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[PmedicJ 0]

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IMO this would cure a large problem and make it an official recommendation!

It already is an "official recommendation."
And one unlikely to change.

Ok you have me on that comment!
But the fact is, it's outdated and needs to change! Like I said there are way too many people finding a way around this by doing the likes of hop n' pops or just plain using them without instruction and it needs to change!

I believe my solution would work and be a heck of a lot safer in the long run!

[AggieDave 6]

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But the fact is, it's outdated and needs to change! Like I said there are way too many people finding a way around this by doing the likes of hop n' pops or just plain using them without instruction and it needs to change!

Its not out dated. What has happened is that on larger DZs the up jumpers aren't mentoring young jumpers like they did in years past. I had an old grizzly JM that worked very hard to make sure I knew right from wrong in skydiving. He would jump with me and help me learn how to fly, he was the first to punk me out when I screwed up and the first to give me a beer at the end of the day.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[popsjumper 2]

I had a guy show up wanting to do a re-currency jump having just under 100 jumps. He had a GPS unit on the top of his helmet strapped to a large camera mounting plate.

I told him no GPS unit, no mounting plate. He wanted to argue that it was not a camera. He had no clue about the potential snag point of the mounting plate that hung out a couple of inches on all sides.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DiverMike 5]

I am a little surprised USPA hasn't made camera flying a rating. I'm a PADI Scuba instructor and that organization makes a lot of money issuing ratings of questionable value. As long as it is just a recommendation it will carry the weight and significance thereof. There is a big difference between I advise you not to do it and you can't do it.
It makes more sense to require specific training for the activity combined with a magic jump number.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm a PADI Scuba instructor and that organization makes a lot of money issuing ratings of questionable value.

that's a kind way of putting it

I hear PADI is thinking of putting out a license for divers that want to wear 3mil wetsuits and charge for another license for those using 7mil wetsuits - put another dollar in

I really don't want USPA to go down that road any further than they already have (Coach and Pro Ratings come to mind)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DSE 3]

This 200 jump discussion has been going on for years. There is no reaaon that USPA will make it a rating (although I can't argue that it shouldn't be) and even if it were, there would always be someone there to pencil-whip someone else to receive the rating. They won't make canopy piloting a coachable, rated discipline either. Nor will they make wingloadings a controlled value much like many other countries do. Insurance, liability, litigation make USPA afraid of this avenue of authority.
The SIM is being updated on this subject even as I type.

[stayhigh 2]

is the person camera flying or is the gopro just on top and doing normal shit???

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[topdocker 0]

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is the person camera flying or is the gopro just on top and doing normal shit???

That really doesn't matter.

This past weekend, I slapped a Go-pro to get some footage while we were doing rotations. I was surprised at how much of a distraction that little camera was on jump run. Normally, I'm doing my last gear check, making sure my handles are in the right location, rig tight, etc. But now I found myself dicking around with the camera and distracted just a bit from my routine.

I think that is one of the hidden dangers, even if you are just going to do your normal dive, your pre-dive routine is alterred, your exit is alterred, and its just one more distraction. Young jumpers are shocked when I talk with them about snag hazards and the camera. Most don't know what they don't know.

Just because you have gotten 200 jumps does not magically make you qualified to fly a camera, but it is a minimum to consider. If you were the best student, had no issues all through your first 200 jumps, are situationally aware at all times, and getting excellent mentoring from an excellent camera-flyer then you could go ahead at 200 jumps. Most should wait even longer.

Like many things in this sport, its fine to do right up until something goes wrong, then it can be more of an issue than you can deal with effectively.

top

Jump more, post less!

[billvon 2,395]

>People are jumping a go-pro or contour without the required magical
>200 jumps, it happens on a lot of DZ's

A lot of stupid things happen on a lot of DZ's.

>But how about a remedy to the situation? why not make it 100 jumps
>and have an experienced camera flyer or coach go with and instruct and
>watch someone that would like to fly a small camera setup such as the
>go-pro or contour?

What would that do? The problem is not snag hazard; if it were, we could say "no cameras unless they're really streamlined." The problem is not flying skill; if it were, we could say "no cameras until you can get so-and-so FS or VFS award."

The problem is distraction. And having someone else to help watch over you (in case you get too distracted by the camera) is nice, but won't help much on the _next_ jump after they're gone.

>where is the instruction and training?

The instruction needed to do camera well is not (I believe) the issue. It takes a while to garner the skills needed to be able to fly relative to a formation and to use wings. It takes a day or so to learn about the technical aspects of camera helmets (snag points, how to turn them on, neck protection, quick releases etc) Then it takes a while more to learn how to actually do video well, capture exits, frame your subject quickly etc.

But new jumpers who want to use cameras are adamant that none of that applies to them. "It's tiny and it's not a snag hazard." "I don't want to film 4 way, I just want to record my own jump." "I will turn it on and forget about it." "It's no bigger than my altimeter - what, are you going to BAN altimeters for low timers?"

So while I think an optional camera rating (maybe just a syllabus) would be great, it's not really going to solve this problem. (Unless you require a C license at the same time, that it.)

[wmw999 2,120]

It's only not a distraction if he doesn't know it's there. Even if you're used to distractions, even if you're used to cameras.

Skydiving by itself is worthy of one's full attention. Once one has managed skydiving with a lot of distractions (like the gear, the airplane, landings, other jumpers) under a lot of different conditions, one can think about deliberately adding distractions, rather than just dealing with the ones that are already there.

Yeah, people can survive it. They can survive jumping with too small a main. They can survive driving too fast. They can survive drinking too much. But you're relying on luck rather than risk management -- you've let control of your future go.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DiverMike 5]

From my point of view, the biggest problem is 200 minimum is just a recommendation and not a BSR. I have 38 jumps and would love to do a night jump, but I know it isn't go to happen until I get a 'B' license. No USA Dropzone is going to let me do it because it is a BSR.

I would be an idiot to disregard the recommendation, but within USPA Regulations to jump with a camera. On the other hand, I assume the DZ owner can enforce regulations above and beyond USPA's BSRs as long as they are uniformly enforced.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[riggerpaul 1]

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On the other hand, I assume the DZ owner can enforce regulations above and beyond USPA's BSRs as long as they are uniformly enforced.

Actually, the DZO can make and apply rules as he sees fit. No need for them to be uniform.

He can make rule that applies to me and not to you.

It is his business, and he can run it as he pleases.

Our part is to choose the dz we patronize based on how they meet our needs.

[DiverMike 5]

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Actually, the DZO can make and apply rules as he sees fit. No need for them to be uniform.

You are absolutely correct.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[DARK 0]

just to play devils advocate

- a set limit for everyone is easy to enforce but dosnt really make anything all that much safer, if its a distraction its a distraction no matter how many jumps you have and there are people who can deal with that and people who cant no matter how many jumps they have. i know skydivers with hundreds of jumps and days in the tunnel who still cant deal with any extra distractions

- you cant look at people who wear go pros and look at the stupid shit they do and blame it on the go pros unless you have a way to compare it with stupid shit people do without go pros. the stupidest thing iv done in skydiving was done with no camera on my head (i have never jumped with any type of camera)

- i will more than likely wait until i have 200 jumps to jump with a camera as even though thats what iv always wanted to do since starting im not in any particular rush to do it this season BUT if i were to talk to my instructors who have known me from day one and who i live and work with on a day to day basis and they happen to think i would be safe to fly one i dont know what makes anyone on here think they know better

- thats why i think there should be a course that you can take if you choose from your s+ta or something after say 100 jumps if you have your coach rating or something like that(i think the being able to coach at 100 but not fly camera at 100 is a pretty strong argument) that will teach you good procedure and awareness for flying any camera not to mind a small format one

when someone gives a good suggestion that is thought out and reasonable simply saying 'but thats not the way it is and it wont change' isnt really a good enough answer, in theory we are in control of the organisation who makes these ratings after all

[DSE 3]

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- thats why i think there should be a course that you can take if you choose from your s+ta or something after say 100 jumps if you have your coach rating or something like that(i think the being able to coach at 100 but not fly camera at 100 is a pretty strong argument) that will teach you good procedure and awareness for flying any camera not to mind a small format one

when someone gives a good suggestion that is thought out and reasonable simply saying 'but thats not the way it is and it wont change' isnt really a good enough answer, in theory we are in control of the organisation who makes these ratings after all

You're going to have a hard time convincing USPA or any current, experienced skydiver that the recommendation should be less than 200 jumps. In a practical sense, the only people advocating lowering the number are those that don't have the experience.
You're right; experienced people also get distracted with a camera.
However, their experience affords them the muscle memory and thought process that allows them to deal with problems, much moreso than someone with virtually no experience. Sure...there are people that can manage a camera early on. In my own case, I began training for the camera on my 27th jump. I spent a lot of time in the tunnel with Ed Dickenson, a lot of air time with people like Jay Stokes, Jack Guthrie, Norman Kent, and a few others that really helped me along the way. I didn't fart around with trying to learn to freefly or anthing else. I did relative work and worked on proximity. Even then, I wasn't ready, not really. My second camera jump I ended up in a bad place. S*t happens, no doubt.
It can happen at 10, 200, 10,000 jumps. But the guy with 200 jumps is twice as equipped to deal with problems than the guy at 100 jumps, who is twice as equipped to deal with it than the guy who has 50 jumps. All you have to do is look at the list compiled of "stupid" that we've already collected in just a few months, and they don't represent 25% of what has likely gone on.
It's not the "I've been doing this for a while and getting away with it" that matters. It's that one time you find yourself in a spot and can't figure out how to deal with it fast enough. You put yourself and others at risk.
Only day before yesterday I watched a guy with 150 jumps wearing a camera practicing his sit. "I was just filming my own jump, trying to hold a heading and film my heading." He lost altitude and positional awareness and tracked into another person's airspace. They deployed about 50' apart. The relative worker who was nearly hit had no idea another person was that close until he heard a canopy opening just below and to his side.
IMO, that is unconscionable.

[riggerpaul 1]

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just to play devils advocate

- a set limit for everyone is easy to enforce but dosnt really make anything all that much safer, if its a distraction its a distraction no matter how many jumps you have and there are people who can deal with that and people who cant no matter how many jumps they have. i know skydivers with hundreds of jumps and days in the tunnel who still cant deal with any extra distractions

- you cant look at people who wear go pros and look at the stupid shit they do and blame it on the go pros unless you have a way to compare it with stupid shit people do without go pros. the stupidest thing iv done in skydiving was done with no camera on my head (i have never jumped with any type of camera)

- i will more than likely wait until i have 200 jumps to jump with a camera as even though thats what iv always wanted to do since starting im not in any particular rush to do it this season BUT if i were to talk to my instructors who have known me from day one and who i live and work with on a day to day basis and they happen to think i would be safe to fly one i dont know what makes anyone on here think they know better

- thats why i think there should be a course that you can take if you choose from your s+ta or something after say 100 jumps if you have your coach rating or something like that(i think the being able to coach at 100 but not fly camera at 100 is a pretty strong argument) that will teach you good procedure and awareness for flying any camera not to mind a small format one

when someone gives a good suggestion that is thought out and reasonable simply saying 'but thats not the way it is and it wont change' isnt really a good enough answer, in theory we are in control of the organisation who makes these ratings after all

Look, the recommendation is simply that - a recommendation.

If a person thinks it should not be applied in that person's particular case, that person can go to the DZO and/or the S&TA and/or the head camera guy, and try to get approval. Maybe they know you well enough to give an immediate answer, or, maybe they will ask you to show them why the recommendation should not be applied in this particular case. But, whatever the course, the recommendation is a good place to start. Variance from it is something that will need to be earned. It is not to simply be expected. It is not about the size of the camera or the simplicity of the mount. It is about being ready to get into something that most people have not been ready for so soon. It is not a personal insult to fail to get a variance. These people have to consider your safety and the safety of those around you when such a request is presented. They are (usually) doing the best they can for all involved.

Some people are making it sound like the most horrible thing that there is a recommendation that says to wait.

But if they are good enough, and can prove it, there already are ways to approach the thing.

So what's the problem?

[DARK 0]

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- thats why i think there should be a course that you can take if you choose from your s+ta or something after say 100 jumps if you have your coach rating or something like that(i think the being able to coach at 100 but not fly camera at 100 is a pretty strong argument) that will teach you good procedure and awareness for flying any camera not to mind a small format one

when someone gives a good suggestion that is thought out and reasonable simply saying 'but thats not the way it is and it wont change' isnt really a good enough answer, in theory we are in control of the organisation who makes these ratings after all

You're going to have a hard time convincing USPA or any current, experienced skydiver that the recommendation should be less than 200 jumps. In a practical sense, the only people advocating lowering the number are those that don't have the experience.
You're right; experienced people also get distracted with a camera.
However, their experience affords them the muscle memory and thought process that allows them to deal with problems, much moreso than someone with virtually no experience. Sure...there are people that can manage a camera early on. In my own case, I began training for the camera on my 27th jump. I spent a lot of time in the tunnel with Ed Dickenson, a lot of air time with people like Jay Stokes, Jack Guthrie, Norman Kent, and a few others that really helped me along the way. I didn't fart around with trying to learn to freefly or anthing else. I did relative work and worked on proximity. Even then, I wasn't ready, not really. My second camera jump I ended up in a bad place. S*t happens, no doubt.
It can happen at 10, 200, 10,000 jumps. But the guy with 200 jumps is twice as equipped to deal with problems than the guy at 100 jumps, who is twice as equipped to deal with it than the guy who has 50 jumps. All you have to do is look at the list compiled of "stupid" that we've already collected in just a few months, and they don't represent 25% of what has likely gone on.
It's not the "I've been doing this for a while and getting away with it" that matters. It's that one time you find yourself in a spot and can't figure out how to deal with it fast enough. You put yourself and others at risk.
Only day before yesterday I watched a guy with 150 jumps wearing a camera practicing his sit. "I was just filming my own jump, trying to hold a heading and film my heading." He lost altitude and positional awareness and tracked into another person's airspace. They deployed about 50' apart. The relative worker who was nearly hit had no idea another person was that close until he heard a canopy opening just below and to his side.
IMO, that is unconscionable.

first of all im not saying i dont agree with you(accept about the only people advocating lowering the number is inexperienced people because i know that not to be true for a fact)

im just saying that a jump number is not necessarily the best way to gauge things and if that is the general consensus or if the general consensus is it should be a rating(even one your not eligible for until 200 jumps) then we as uspa members should be able to enact that change and just saying 'the uspa wont do that' is not a good enough answer

also as someone who is in the bracket you guys are talking about and i guess as someone you are trying to reach to see 'good sense' i can tell you that the way you guys are doing it right now has no affect

i dont care that dse has a list of people who have done stupid stuff and i wont care until there is a proper official comparison of idiots with cameras and without, and i can tell you that if your not having an affect on me(as a pretty conservative jumper who likes to take things fairly slow) then there is no way in hell your gonna reach the actual gung ho people you really gotta worry about

the reason i like the rating idea given by a respected appointed local is because people are far far more likely to listen to their peers who they know and respect and who knows them then to an 'official recomendation' in a book most will never read. making it a rating gives the idea that camera is a special discipline that deserves respect more weight imo

[DARK 0]

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just to play devils advocate

- a set limit for everyone is easy to enforce but dosnt really make anything all that much safer, if its a distraction its a distraction no matter how many jumps you have and there are people who can deal with that and people who cant no matter how many jumps they have. i know skydivers with hundreds of jumps and days in the tunnel who still cant deal with any extra distractions

- you cant look at people who wear go pros and look at the stupid shit they do and blame it on the go pros unless you have a way to compare it with stupid shit people do without go pros. the stupidest thing iv done in skydiving was done with no camera on my head (i have never jumped with any type of camera)

- i will more than likely wait until i have 200 jumps to jump with a camera as even though thats what iv always wanted to do since starting im not in any particular rush to do it this season BUT if i were to talk to my instructors who have known me from day one and who i live and work with on a day to day basis and they happen to think i would be safe to fly one i dont know what makes anyone on here think they know better

- thats why i think there should be a course that you can take if you choose from your s+ta or something after say 100 jumps if you have your coach rating or something like that(i think the being able to coach at 100 but not fly camera at 100 is a pretty strong argument) that will teach you good procedure and awareness for flying any camera not to mind a small format one

when someone gives a good suggestion that is thought out and reasonable simply saying 'but thats not the way it is and it wont change' isnt really a good enough answer, in theory we are in control of the organisation who makes these ratings after all

Look, the recommendation is simply that - a recommendation.

If a person thinks it should not be applied in that person's particular case, that person can go to the DZO and/or the S&TA and/or the head camera guy, and try to get approval. Maybe they know you well enough to give an immediate answer, or, maybe they will ask you to show them why the recommendation should not be applied in this particular case. But, whatever the course, the recommendation is a good place to start. Variance from it is something that will need to be earned. It is not to simply be expected. It is not about the size of the camera or the simplicity of the mount. It is about being ready to get into something that most people have not been ready for so soon. It is not a personal insult to fail to get a variance. These people have to consider your safety and the safety of those around you when such a request is presented. They are (usually) doing the best they can for all involved.

Some people are making it sound like the most horrible thing that there is a recommendation that says to wait.

But if they are good enough, and can prove it, there already are ways to approach the thing.

So what's the problem?

thats pretty true i guess the problem is IF someone has done the above and goes elsewhere and all of a sudden they are either not allowed to jump or are ridiculed for being dangerous.

but ye your right, i personally dont see it as a major issue but it seems to be one that comes up around here over and over again

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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Ok, This is my recommendation!

People are jumping a go-pro or contour without the required magical 200 jumps, it happens on a lot of DZ's

We must all agree that the SIM is a little outdated...Or not!

But how about a remedy to the situation? why not make it 100 jumps and have an experienced camera flyer or coach go with and instruct and watch someone that would like to fly a small camera setup such as the go-pro or contour? Have a debriefing and recommend to or not until such person is said to meet the requirements to use such a device and until they learn and apply the potential dangers and hazards associated with them are they aloud to use this device, along with having a rigger and S&TA sign off on! IMO this would cure a large problem and make it an official recommendation!

I have heard new jumpers say "i will bang out another 150 or so hop n" pops and then I can use my new camera and a wingsuit together @ the same time!"

where is the instruction and training?

Oh that's right the SIM

We all know that it takes time but how about time and a little instruction?

I think that this might cure some rambunctious behavior and keep some folks satisfied at the same time!

Just my opinion!

How about change the SIM to 200 + Camera training? That would make more sense. Either way, 200< should be the minimum.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[DSE 3]

IMO, the SIM is wrong in the way it's written anyway, because the main issues it addresses are those of snag hazards and not anything substantive about the psychology of the skydiver.

If you look at the camera forums, *most* of the issues fall into the distraction of the camera, not the neck-wrenching, snag-hazarding, falling off the helmet issues.

We've lost a few extremely experienced people due to the psychological changes in behavior that a camera inspires. We've lost newbies for the same reason.
The sad thing is, lesser experienced jumpers will use the loss of the experienced jumpers to point out "See? This happens to big dogs too." The missed point is how many times experienced people have gotten into a hole and been able to dig out because of the recommended experience levels.
Funnier still, we could make this a BSR, we could mandate camera training (I'm all for that) but then we'd have more people bitching about "stupid BSR's."

[ridestrong 1]

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Only day before yesterday I watched a guy with 150 jumps wearing a camera practicing his sit. "I was just filming my own jump, trying to hold a heading and film my heading." He lost altitude and positional awareness and tracked into another person's airspace. They deployed about 50' apart. The relative worker who was nearly hit had no idea another person was that close until he heard a canopy opening just below and to his side.
IMO, that is unconscionable.

Sounds like all 3 of you were jumping solo but somehow in proximity of each other??? Maybe you guys need to work on your exit separation.

ETA: also, by your report it sounds like the RW guy also didn't thoroughly check his airspace before pulling.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[davelepka 4]

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im just saying that a jump number is not necessarily the best way to gauge things

No, it really is. Passing a test, or a rating course only show that performed well at that time, under those controlled circumstances. When set loose on the rest of the world, all you have to prove your worth is the day of ground school and the half-dozen jumps you did at the ratings course.

Look at other ratings, they all have jump number minimums, so even if they did create a camera rating, it would start with a 200 jump minimum, and go from there, so your net gain as a sub-200 jump guy would be zero.

The idea is this, buy the time you have 200 jumps, you have shown the ability to at least survive 200 jumps, which is pretty good. Much less then that, and you're still in the 'newbie' phase, leading up to 100 jumps. The time between 100 and 200, the classic '100 jump wonder' phase is where you prove your worth, and gain some real experiecne. People start to treat you like just another jumper, not the 'new guy' or the low man on the totem pole. You have to fend for yourself, and once you get used to that, you're a step closer to being able to 'walk and chew gum'.

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the reason i like the rating idea given by a respected appointed local is because people are far far more likely to listen to their peers who they know and respect and who knows them then to an 'official recomendation' in a book most will never read

If this is the impression you get from your local buddies, you should check if they wear their helmets all of the time, and not just while jumping.

Let's realize that the 'official book' is the same book that was referenced when ALL of your local peers and mentors learned to jump. They're still alive, still jumping, and are skilled enough to have your respect, but not the book?

How about the same book that was used when EVERY instructor on your DZ, who taught you and everyone else there, became an instructor? The book seemed to work out just fine for them, and in turn for you when they made you a skydiver, but now the book just sucks, right?

[DSE 3]

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Sounds like all 3 of you were jumping solo but somehow in proximity of each other??? Maybe you guys need to work on your exit separation.

ETA: also, by your report it sounds like the RW guy also didn't thoroughly check his airspace before pulling.

Not a remotely accurate assumption. Merely evidence that you have no clue what you have no idea about....

That said...what should the RW guy do when he's at 3K and sees another body from a different stick falling towards him as he's deploying?
How should he have cleared his airspace "better?"
Should he stop his deployment and track?
Which way should he track?
You have a better alternative to the low man rule?
How does the first stick out "work on exit separation" in mid-jump?
Is the first stick out responsible in any way for exit separation?