Clueless and Need Advice

[LittleDJ 0]

im new to skydiving and am startng to consider my rig for when i complete my AFF, i have had an offer from someone at my local dz who is selling a vector 3 with cypress 2, rsl, reserve canopy and a spetre 170 for about 2k, she said she bought it for 3300 two years ago and it has had about 250 jumps on it and is in great condition, is this a good deal or not??

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LittleDJ!!- There is no such thing as a perfectly good aircraft!!!

[skymedic 0]

yep sounds like a good deal to me...just make sure a rigger takes a look at it.

also make sure you can handle a 170...ask your instructors before you buy that. it will be alot quicker compared to student stuff.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[LittleDJ 0]

thanks, i'm planning a few demo jumps before i buy, just as soon as the winds start to drop over here for me to complete my jumps!! i'm currently jumping a 280 and as i'm so small it takes ages for me to land from pulling, would you advise to demo a bigger canopy for a few jumps first?

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LittleDJ!!- There is no such thing as a perfectly good aircraft!!!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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i'm currently jumping a 280

A 280 to a 170 is WAY too big a jump in canopy performance.

Derek

[Fab 0]

going from a 280 to a 170 in one step is NOT a good idea...Put a few on a 230/210/190..

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[outlawphx 1]

If you don't want it, I'll take it

[JohnGraham 0]

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...a vector 3 with cypress 2, rsl, reserve canopy and a spetre 170

Find out what type & size of reserve canopy is being sold with the rig if you don't already know - it's "quite important".

[kelpdiver 2]

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im new to skydiving and am startng to consider my rig for when i complete my AFF, i have had an offer from someone at my local dz who is selling a vector 3 with cypress 2, rsl, reserve canopy and a spetre 170 for about 2k, she said she bought it for 3300 two years ago and it has had about 250 jumps on it and is in great condition, is this a good deal or not??

Sounds like a great deal -- if it fits and the canopy size is appropriate. If your body weight (without gear) is <=150, you *probably* could get to it sometime soon after your student process (A, not AFF). Best to have a third party (your instructors) give you an opinion.

Last fall when I looked, I was excited to find a Vector 2, a Falcon main (F-111), some reserve, and a Cypres1 with 2 years remaining. $1800. But the main was definitely two sizes too small for me, and the V2 a bit outdated.

[pilotdave 0]

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A 280 to a 170 is WAY too big a jump in canopy performance.

I don't disagree... but I made my first jump on a 170. It's a big jump, but at low wingloading, a 170 can be a safe early canopy. I jumped a PD170 which is slower and less maneuverable than a spectre 170. Do you think getting experience on the 280 makes jumping a 170 more or less dangerous?

Dave

[Hooknswoop 19]

***Do you think getting experience on the 280 makes jumping a 170 more or less dangerous?

Small problems magnify themselves on smaller canopies. Reaching with a hand and foot during the flare won't matter very much on a 280, but can injure you on a 170. The flare is very different, so 280 experience is no help on a 170. The 170 is faster, turns faster, loses a lot more altitude in a turn, etc.

Derek

[GravityGirl 0]

Sounds like a great deal monitarily.

Make sure your DZ has a few rental sizes to graduate you from the 280 to a 170. Even a few jumps on each size in between will make a world of difference.

If you DZ does not have varying sizes available, maybe you could plan a trip and spend a weekend or two transitioning.

First just get through AFF.

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Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[RossDagley 0]

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A 280 to a 170 is WAY too big a jump in canopy performance.

I don't disagree... but I made my first jump on a 170. It's a big jump, but at low wingloading, a 170 can be a safe early canopy. I jumped a PD170 which is slower and less maneuverable than a spectre 170. Do you think getting experience on the 280 makes jumping a 170 more or less dangerous?

Dave

Again, I dont' disagree, and thats coming from someone (me) who went from a 280 to a 188 without transition jumps on intermediate canopies.

I'd *really* suggest even just a few jumps on something inbetween (maybe a 230 then a 190 or something, with 2-3 jumps on each) - the canopies are WORLDS apart.

[riggerrob 558]

Like several other posters, I would encourage you to do a dozen or so jumps on an intermediate sized canopy (230-ish) before jumping the 170.

Ten years ago I made the mistake of transitioning from a 220 straight to a Sabre 150, because I got such a "great deal" on a slightly used Sabre 150.
After scaring myself - for a year - under the Sabre 150, I traded it for a Sabre 170. After jumping the Sabre 170 for 3 years, I traded it for a Sabre 150.

[LittleDJ 0]

Thanks to every1 for your help, i really appreciate it, i'm lucky that my dz has both an advanced rigger and plenty of canopies i can try before i downsize to the 170.

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LittleDJ!!- There is no such thing as a perfectly good aircraft!!!

[ngawang01 0]

What do you know about the Dolphin containers? Would you buy one as your first rig? I'm planning to log @100 jumps a year.

"Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies
Tongue-tied and twisted Just an earth-bound misfit, I". pf

[immanence 0]

Others may disagree and have more experience than I to bring to bear on this matter, but in my opinion downsizing to a 170 from 280 student gear need not be an excessive step. Much depends on the weight ratio and mental attitude of the jumper.

After around 28 jumps on Mantas I transitioned on my 59th jump (30 jumps had been on rounds) to a Reflex 145. Given that I'm light (at around 155lbs) the weight ratio was good. I was simply extremely cautious (still am) for the first 20 jumps. In general, I believe I am much safer under this smaller, zero-porosity canopy. It flies much better than any student canopy. I know if I had to, I could get out of the way of something fast. It lands swiftly if I make it, gently if I wish. Toggle input is immediate and predictable after a few jumps.

I wouldn't want to stretch the metaphor too far, because some present canopies can surely only be handled by experts, but I think there is something to seeing canopies as one might see cars: I, for one, would feel safer behind the wheel of a Porsche 911 than a Cadillac Eldorado. One doesn't have to drive the Porsche like a lunatic. I guess it all comes down to knowing where one's own limits are, and driving or canopy-flying within those limits.

Relative to the specific question posed by this thread, yes, it sounds like a good deal. Probably you should put in at least 10 jumps beyond your AFF before downsizing, but your instructor can better assess your level than any of us. One word of caution: you may wish to think on the subject title you chose for this thread. "Clueless" is not what you should be when engaged in this sport.

Blue skies,
ian

"where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos'

[vdschoor 0]

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I wouldn't want to stretch the metaphor too far, because some present canopies can surely only be handled by experts, but I think there is something to seeing canopies as one might see cars: I, for one, would feel safer behind the wheel of a Porsche 911 than a Cadillac Eldorado. One doesn't have to drive the Porsche like a lunatic. I guess it all comes down to knowing where one's own limits are, and driving or canopy-flying within those limits.

Ian, you make a very good point about knowing one's limits...

The funny thing about the comparison between cars and canopies is that it is not a 1:1 correct one.
In that Porsche you're mentioning.. there's an accelerator to make you go faster, so in the case where you said you dont have to drive it like an idiot / but drive it within your limits, you have a choice in the matter.

this is only partially true for canopies, smaller canopies GO faster to start with.. respond faster to start with.. there is no such thing as "driving it really slow" cause there is no way to go really slow based on what the standard speed is already. Of course, you can handle the extra speed extra careful and all that, but still you ARE going fast.

Just my 2cts..

to the topic starter, work with your instructors and experienced people at your dropzone to come to a decision on gear.

[skybytch 259]

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to a Reflex 145.

Never heard of a Reflex main canopy. What is it like?

[immanence 0]

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In that Porsche you're mentioning .. there's an accelerator to make you go faster .. you have a choice in the matter. This is only partially true for canopies, smaller canopies GO faster to start with

Yes, indeed. You're right, of course, which is why I wouldn't want to push the metaphor. Maybe I should have more accurately compared a Lexus with a Winnebago (or maybe, as you suggest, the vehicle metaphor doesn't apply much at all). At any rate, there is the problem of natural flying speed, at least relative to inexperienced pilots. But responsiveness, agility and input accuracy are important flight characteristics that pertain to safety and confidence in the air and which larger, "docile" canopies aren't designed to provide.

I'd simply say that bigger is not necessarily better for one's first 100 jumps, while clearly too small can be downright dangerous. What exactly is "too small" is a relative question, as is the question of what's too big. It is not the leap from 280 to 170 that matters, but whether 170 fits with this particular jumper's weight and canopy flying abilities. I never cared (and still don't) about impressive landings, but I sure remember being so much happier under the agile and solid Reflex 145 than I ever was under the flappy old Manta 280s I had to jump before I bought my own gear.

The optimal canopy for an early post-AFF jumper should have drive while not outrunning, at its natural flying speed, the limits of the pilot.

"where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos'

[immanence 0]

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Never heard of a Reflex main canopy. What is it like?

It's quite an old canopy, early 1990s, P.I.S.A (South African). I really like it, but when I can I'll be changing my entire rig for something more up to date (my Cypres I expires next year ).

I pack very carefully, keeping an eye on current propack philosophies, but sometimes have really "tossed to-and-fro" openings. But in general, it's a decent canopy. A bit bulky for it's size when it comes to getting it in the D-bag.

It's fast in the air, if you want it to be. I generally prefer a smooth if decisive drive down, instead of pitching myself above the canopy in G-force-producing spirals. I guess you could say I'm conservative. It sure has nothing on the current elipicals, etc., but that's fine by me when I'm under it.

"where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos'

[riggerrob 558]

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What do you know about the Dolphin containers? Would you buy one as your first rig? I'm planning to log @100 jumps a year.

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Dolphins are low-budget versions of Javelins: nothing fancy, nothing spectacular and few options, but they fill a market niche.
I have repaired and repacked a few Dolphins and if someone gave me a Dolphin, I would put a thousand jumps on it.
Note: the most common repair to Dolphins is to the main top flap. I have done similar repairs to Talon, Telesis, Javelin, Vector, etc.
Mike Fury - who helped design the Javelin - set up the Dolphin production line a few years after he sold Sun Path (Javelin factory) to Thomas.

Henry "Pullyourlinen" was the other half of the Javelin design team and now he builds Wings containers.

[LittleDJ 0]

thanks again for the advice, i am small and find it takes far too long for me to land a 280. the person selling the rig is the same build and weight as me and had this as her first canopy too. As for my canopy control, because i started on RAPS my knowledge is very good, i find the larger canopys toggles hard but i can still control and land fine and usually on target. I think i will demo some larger canopys once passed and take any advice the rigger and my instructors can give. oh and as for being clueless, ive only been in the sport 2 months and i put that as i am unsure of the price for used rigs as it varies so much.

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LittleDJ!!- There is no such thing as a perfectly good aircraft!!!

[adobelover 0]

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What do you know about the Dolphin containers? Would you buy one as your first rig? I'm planning to log @100 jumps a year.

My husband and I are weekend jumpers and we both have had Dolphin containers for a couple of years. We have done some freeflying and never had any problems yet. Just make sure any Velcro is in good condition and the poptop & reserve closing loop tight...we also have our rigger check our gear on a regular basis.

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Old age ain't no place for sissies!