I have a bad spot... now what?

[Inspired 0]

If I'm jumping with a group and, while in freefall, I realize that our spot is not so good, what should I do?

a. Is there some standard way of letting others in the group know that I want to pull high because of the spot?

b. Should I still pull high even if the others don't? This obviously would create a hazard. Or should I just turn and track early (perpendicular to jump run) and hope nobody else tracks in my direction when they break off?

c. How high can I pull without creating a hazard with the jumpers that left after us on the load? If planned deployment was for 3.5k, can I pull at 5k? Or 6k? What's the limit?

I plan on asking my mentors about this later, but I thought other newbies might benefit if I ask here too.

[shropshire 0]

Cracking question ..

I guess that you're not the last group out (otherwise you wouldn't be so worried about dumping high).... so the next one will probably be even deeper ...um


What's the landing area under you like? .. Good 'Outs'?


Personally, I'm not too worried about making it back to the DZ... just landing safely. (I fly paragliders so pretty much always land out.. it's often no big thing... you just have to be extra careful).

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[dragon2 0]

Basically, you just deal with the bad spot.

You can't just pull at 5 or 6 k unless you are very very certain there is no one above you (others in your group, THE CAMERAFLYER),no one left the plane after you and also pullling high is allowed at your DZ and at that time (could be other planes in the air, wingsuiters, etc).

If it's just you and one other jumper you might point down to get the point across and wave off a little bit early (0,5 k or so, maybe 1k), been there done that with tandems. Other than that, best to stick to the original plan, unless in case of emergency. Generally, a bad spot is not an emergency (unless you got out above alligator swamps and then you shouldn't have gotten out should you ). Deviating from the original plan can lead to way more serious consequences than having to land out. Also, learn to spot better if this keeps happening to you

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[erdnarob 1]

I would say, by solidarity, you should stay with others. If the bad spot creates a hazard (like being over the sea, lake, town, forest, mountain... and having the wrong wind to come back at the DZ, try to let other people in the formation know by showing them the ground and hopefully, separation will occur earlier to open higher. Opening higher is not the solution to everything. If you have a malfunction at high altitude, you are more likely to lose your main parachute and your reserve free bag for good.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[davelepka 4]

You stick with the plan, whatever that may be. When you agree to jump with others, and agree on a dive flow, you need to follow through with that because that's what the others are expecting you to do.

So just ride it out, and complete the skydive. Don't short your track to pull higher, either. Proper seperation on opening is way more important than the spot. In truth, if you have planned your break off and opening altitudes correctly (appropriate for your jump numbers), and you have chosen your canopy correctly (appropriate for your jump numbers), then landing off should be a non-issue. You'll be open high enough to allow yourself time to locate a good alternate LZ and plan out your landing pattern around said LZ, and your canopy will be forgiving enough that you can land it with a reasonable degree of accuracy.

[Andy9o8 0]

Get a toupee?

[JSE 1]

Quote

a. Is there some standard way of letting others in the group know that I want to pull high because of the spot?

I usually point down, then take my hands with palms facing each other and move them apart indicating a long distance. Sometimes this is followed by making an "O" with my thumb and index finger and repeatedly sticking the other index finger in the whole. You can probably guess what that indicates.

I did this yesterday in fact, although it was on a tandem video jump. The instructor then indicated to me that he would pull slightly higher and gave me a three, two, one countdown and deployed. It was only about 1 grand higher than normal, but it allowed me to make it back so I could film the student's landing.

Quote

b. Should I still pull high even if the others don't? This obviously would create a hazard. Or should I just turn and track early (perpendicular to jump run) and hope nobody else tracks in my direction when they break off?

In general the advice given by most of the other posts is right. Stay with the group. But, if you look down and realize that you are seriously far away then it might be appropriate to track off and pull a little high. This may get the rest of the group to realize where you are. If you track perpendicular to jump run and deploy slightly higher it should not affect other jumps in your group or others. If it does, then exit separation is the real issue not someone pulling a thousand feet to early.

Quote

c. How high can I pull without creating a hazard with the jumpers that left after us on the load? If planned deployment was for 3.5k, can I pull at 5k? Or 6k? What's the limit?
I plan on asking my mentors about this later, but I thought other newbies might benefit if I ask here too.

If your declared pull altitude is 3.5 I would not deploy above 5k. This is all dependent on many variables such as what your skydive/group is, the winds, what other groups are behind you, etc. Someone from a middle group dumping at 8k cause they aren't "right over the top" is not ok.

I always thought it was stupid when people land in BFE causing a delay to everyone else because they sucked it down low instead of trying to make it back. While it is not always feasible or doable, the best thing to do is look down before exiting. But if you find yourself in free fall the next county over for god sakes pull high so we don't have to spend an hour looking for you.

Please do talk with other jumpers and your mentor about this. Like most things, advice on the interweb cannot replace what you learn at the dz.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

this is followed by making an "O" with my thumb and index finger and repeatedly sticking the other index finger in the whole. You can probably guess what that indicates.

A hoop dive?

[Psychonaut 0]

Quote

But, if you look down and realize that you are seriously far away then it might be appropriate to track off and pull a little high. This may get the rest of the group to realize where you are. If you track perpendicular to jump run and deploy slightly higher it should not affect other jumps in your group or others. If it does, then exit separation is the real issue not someone pulling a thousand feet to early.

What if you have a shit track, even if it's perpindicular. Then the group that got out after you, Joe Schmoe is a beanpole and has a stellar track. He tracks 45 from jumprun and is right over you!

My opinion, deal with it. Have fun with landing out! Spices things up a bit.

Stay high pull low

[Inspired 0]

Quote

Get a toupee?

A toupee costs money.

Comb-overs are free, AND... a timeless fashion statement!

[Inspired 0]

Ok, so I stick with my group. If they're all taking a dip in the river, then so am I. That certainly would spice things up. And actually, there are plenty of outs around my home DZ, except to the east where there is a river and lots of trees. I think that's what has had me a little spooked.

As far as checking my spot before I exit... how often is that possible when jumping in groups? I saw what I think was an 8 or 10 way all land far out one day. When I mentioned it to my instructor, he said 'that's why WE look at the ground before we jump.' When I thought about it though, I wondered how many of the people who exited in formation from inside the plane ever got a chance to check the spot. They were trusting the floaters to do it for them, and obviously they didn't do a very good job. I haven't done anything larger than a 4 way so far, but even then, when I'm exiting from inside the plane, I never did check the spot. Should I be insisting on the opportunity to check it when there's a plane full of people waiting on me to exit? Or do I put blind faith in people I've just started jumping with? After all, they almost all have lots more experience than me.

[quade 3]

I realize that most people will tell you to simply ride it out and for 99% of all cases that's what you'll do. Hell, when I was jumping team 4-way, we'd occasionally take an intentional bad spot because if we didn't, we just wouldn't have been able to jump (safely).

All of the above said, if it's a regular group you're jumping with, there should be a signal of some sort that the jump is fucked up beyond what would normally be considered safe to continue. Especially in 4-way since focus on turning points can lead to some really nasty things if somebody isn't looking out for you.

That one guy might be the camera flyer. He is, after all, looking straight down through you and can easily see what's going on as far as the spot is concerned.

In teams I've jumped with the signal was the camera flyer would drop down level with the 4-way team, get the attention of somebody and then he'd pull in place. That's about as clear an indication things are fucked up as it gets.

In thousands of camera jumps, I used it exactly once.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

What if you have a shit track, even if it's perpindicular. Then the group that got out after you, Joe Schmoe is a beanpole and has a stellar track. He tracks 45 from jumprun and is right over you!.

If you survive, you have a "discussion" with Joe and his group about exit separation.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

I might signal with a right-hand "L" and point down.
Then wave bye-bye as I turn and track.

Never had to use that because I've never had a spot so bad on a group dive that there were no outs available from planned pull time.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[tombuch 0]

Quote

As far as checking my spot before I exit... how often is that possible when jumping in groups? I saw what I think was an 8 or 10 way all land far out one day. When I mentioned it to my instructor, he said 'that's why WE look at the ground before we jump.' When I thought about it though, I wondered how many of the people who exited in formation from inside the plane ever got a chance to check the spot.

It's pretty easy for each jumper to check the spot most of the time. Almost all of the airplanes we jump from have windows (with a few exceptions). We should be looking out the windows as the airplane is turning to and flying on jumprun. That way we always know where we are, and we know if the jumprun is too long or short before ever getting to the door. Plus it gives us a chance to check for traffic and assure the airspace is clear. So, you don't need to wait until you are at the door to check for traffic or check the spot.

When I was S&TA at The Ranch I posted a series of articles about safety topics. One of those was "Article 16, Survival Strategies, Off Airport Landings" It's still available at http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php. Article 1 is about checking the spot, and it specifically talks about using that time on jumprun to clear the airspace on both sides of the airplane.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[davelepka 4]

Quote

As far as checking my spot before I exit... how often is that possible when jumping in groups?

It's easy - dirt dive. You're going to plan the climbout as far as who gets out first, second, etc, and what grips everyone will have, so include checking the spot as part of the climbout. You may need to adjust the exit positions of others in the group in order to put a 'qualified' person as the first out, but that's what it takes. Make sure this person is someone familiar with the DZ and surrounding area, and that they know what the winds/spot/jumprun is for that day.

In terms of taking a dip in the river, if you plan your opening for a reasonable altitude, you should have more than enough glide to reach the shore of any river in the continental US. If you happen to be jumping over the exact center of the widest part of the mighty Miss, then you might get wet, but why the hell would you be jumping there anyway?

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

What if you have a shit track, even if it's perpindicular. Then the group that got out after you, Joe Schmoe is a beanpole and has a stellar track. He tracks 45 from jumprun and is right over you!

My opinion, deal with it. Have fun with landing out! Spices things up a bit.

The scenario you describe would show that there may not have been enough separation between groups and Joe is tracking farther than necessary.

Exit separation should account for winds aloft/aircraft ground speed and the size of the group that exited before you.

Tracking should be done to the extent to get good separation from your group to safely deploy, not so much that you track into the group that left before you. A max track is not always necessary.

[jimmytavino 16]

bad spots happen from time to time...

But as long as your main is open and flying well..... it's NOT a catastrophe.....

i usually tend to locate the DZ... remind myself of the wind direction and intensity of the day...
Look roughly, downwind of where i am, and visually evaluate my chosen landing site..depending all those factors.
Part of the trick is to Accept, EARLY on,, that the dz won't be reached..

Sometimes people stay committed to the dz, til they get awfully low,, under canopy, at which point,, your options can shrink.. to lousy and BAD
,, and can result in a low turn or bad choice of landing area.

i've had success with picking out my landing area, while still at SOME altitude,, and taking into consideration my desire to fly as standard a pattern as possible,, including being set up ON final... confidently above where i wanna land. It can be a field , a yard, even a clearing within denser brush/trees.. A jumpers' canopy of choice and customary landing techniques must factor in, as well,, I am ok with sitting in brakes if need be, and have a larger sized main which accomodates that.
A highly loaded main and a preference for higher speed landings must be factored in, when picking the area...
Again.. choose wisely and stay confident.

Last thing to allow to occur... would be any type of hook, or turning approach...and that sort of thing can happen when we realize at a LOOOW altitude,, the dz won't be reached..

we dealt w ith bad spots, alot, when jumping PC s and Papillons,, and because accuracy was stressed much more, in those days,, AND because canopies had terrible "drive" as compared to today..
we may have been forced to learn how to correctly deal with the bad spot,,, BESIDES replacing the club local "expert" who may have just blown his last opportunity

jmy
A 3914
D 12122

[davelepka 4]

If you do open up, and are in doubt that you can make it back, now you have some choices to make.

Let's say you're on the borderline of being able to make it back, you need to evaluate your path back to the DZ. Are there good landing areas along the way that you can divert to if you don't make the progress you anticipate? It would be a big mistake to try to overfly a dense forest to try and make a distant DZ. Your better option would be to select a good out much closer to your current position.

If you are looking toward the DZ, and not seeing anything that makes you happy, just turn around. You don't need to be facing the DZ, or land anywhere near the DZ, you just need to land in a safe, clear area.

Orient yourself to the DZ so you can determine the wind direction, and use that info to select an alternate. You should already have a landing pattern and direction of landing at the DZ in mind, so if you know where it is, you can use your pre-planned flight info to determine a good alternate LZ. A wide open field with 100ft trees on the upwind side on a windy day is not a good chioce because of the turbulence off the trees. On a day where the wind is opposite to that day, maybe it's a good choice, but not on this day.

Once you locate an alternate LZ you are happy with, locate another. Many of the obstacles you might encoutner while landing off are difficult to see from opening altitude, but might come into view the closer you get, so have an alternate alternate.

Keep in mind that you want to select a field you can make by your apttern entry altitude, not a field you can just barely make by flying stright in. The pattern is even more important when landing off because the downwind leg gives you one last, low altitude look at the LZ so you spot obstacles. Even things like a swampy area or a thicket of thorn bushes can ruin an otherwise good landing, and the downwind leg is a chance to spot these things.

If you should spot an obstacle on the downwind leg, you can use your base/final turn points to adjust your touch-down spot to avoid whatever it is you saw on the downwind leg. This is why it's important to pre-plan and use a pattern on every jump at the DZ. It gives you the experience in using a pattern to allow you to put it to practical use. By adjusting the turn points, or lenght of each leg, you can select almost any touch down point on a field coming off of the same downwind leg, but only if you practice it on every jump and keep your skills sharp.

Lastly, just PLF. Taller grass then you thought, a gopher hole, or even just soft ground can result in a twisted ankle. Aside form the fact that now you just have to lay there and wait for someone to come help you, you can't jump for the next month. Just roll it out, stand up, and hike out to the road. You'll be back in the air in less than an hour, and no hospital bills.

[spootch 0]

Quote

If you do open up, and are in doubt that you can make it back, now you have some choices to make.

Let's say you're on the borderline of being able to make it back, you need to evaluate your path back to the DZ. Are there good landing areas along the way that you can divert to if you don't make the progress you anticipate? It would be a big mistake to try to overfly a dense forest to try and make a distant DZ. Your better option would be to select a good out much closer to your current position.

If you are looking toward the DZ, and not seeing anything that makes you happy, just turn around. You don't need to be facing the DZ, or land anywhere near the DZ, you just need to land in a safe, clear area.

Orient yourself to the DZ so you can determine the wind direction, and use that info to select an alternate. You should already have a landing pattern and direction of landing at the DZ in mind, so if you know where it is, you can use your pre-planned flight info to determine a good alternate LZ. A wide open field with 100ft trees on the upwind side on a windy day is not a good chioce because of the turbulence off the trees. On a day where the wind is opposite to that day, maybe it's a good choice, but not on this day.

Once you locate an alternate LZ you are happy with, locate another. Many of the obstacles you might encoutner while landing off are difficult to see from opening altitude, but might come into view the closer you get, so have an alternate alternate.

Keep in mind that you want to select a field you can make by your apttern entry altitude, not a field you can just barely make by flying stright in. The pattern is even more important when landing off because the downwind leg gives you one last, low altitude look at the LZ so you spot obstacles. Even things like a swampy area or a thicket of thorn bushes can ruin an otherwise good landing, and the downwind leg is a chance to spot these things.

If you should spot an obstacle on the downwind leg, you can use your base/final turn points to adjust your touch-down spot to avoid whatever it is you saw on the downwind leg. This is why it's important to pre-plan and use a pattern on every jump at the DZ. It gives you the experience in using a pattern to allow you to put it to practical use. By adjusting the turn points, or lenght of each leg, you can select almost any touch down point on a field coming off of the same downwind leg, but only if you practice it on every jump and keep your skills sharp.

Lastly, just PLF. Taller grass then you thought, a gopher hole, or even just soft ground can result in a twisted ankle. Aside form the fact that now you just have to lay there and wait for someone to come help you, you can't jump for the next month. Just roll it out, stand up, and hike out to the road. You'll be back in the air in less than an hour, and no hospital bills.

....or you could just track & pull a little higher

[skybytch 259]

Good stuff, Dave.

Another "trick" is to spend some time with the overhead picture of the landing area and adjoining areas. Run a few scenarios through your head (What would I do if I opened here and couldn't make it back? Which fields are good alternates and which should I avoid?).

You can do the same thing while under canopy on any skydive. If I realized right now that I'm not making it back, where could I safely land?

Preplan alternate landing areas and the patterns you'll use for them and off landings become much less stressful.

[wayneflorida 0]

Cell phone in good to have for those times you land out and are a long ways away, or hurt on the ground.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

....or you could just track & pull a little higher

I already voted againt that option. The scenario presented was of a group jump, and the others in the group have an expectation that EVERYONE will follow the plan, to include break off and pull altitudes.

As others have mentioned, this could create a hazzard for jumpers from other groups. Regardless of right and wrong, when you break off from a jump at 4500ft, you can only track for so long because of the ground. If you left a group at 6k or 7k, the tendency would be to track off a little longer, creating a possible conflict with subsequent groups out of the plane. None of this is mentioning tracking dives or wingsuiters who might be on the load.

In the absence of an 'emergency' the best plan is to stick with the original plan, the one that every other jumper in your group is counting on. I would hardly call a long spot an 'emergency'.

[fasted3 0]

Quote

Cell phone in good to have for those times you land out and are a long ways away, or hurt on the ground.

I always carry mine. A few more things I've learned:

If you're going to miss the DZ it's better to miss by a lot. If you are close people will expect you to walk back, but if you're a long way off it's easier to get a ride.

Land near a road. Be careful of wires and stuff, but being by a road prevents being lost in the woods or swamp for hours.

Use your cell phone to let the DZ know you are OK. Tell them you don't need a ride and hitch hike back. That way you don't have to buy beer. Also, if you land out a lot you won't be a pain in the ass for the DZ.

Make sure you get all your stuff in the car. Don't leave your helmet or goggles on the ground, and don't leave your PC hanging out the door.

Make sure you get all your stuff out of the car when they drop you off. Don't forget your helmet or goggles in there.

Carry some money. A couple of bucks for gas money is a nice gesture for somebody giving you a ride. You can afford it; it's cheaper than beer.

If you have a choice between a field with one cow or one with a lot of cows, pick the one with a lot of cows.

Happy landings

But what do I know?

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Land near a road.

I tend to hold that advice for more experienced jumpers. More important than landing near a road is landing in a clear area with no obstacles and a clear path upwind to avoid object/wake turbulence. Setting up a proper landing pattern will go a long to way ensuring that you touch down where you want.

Adding the convienience factor to that list is setting the bar a little high for a newer jumper dealing with the added stress of landing off. Eventually, yes, it does help to land near, or just within sight of a road. It makes it easy for yout o get out, or easy for the 'search party' to see you as they drive down the road.

Otherwise, all good points. I'll add a couple, when you get picked up, make sure your canopy and lines are all 'in' the car before you shut the door. If you get picked up in a truck and are asked to sit in the back, beware of anything (tools, paint, etc) that might damage your equipment, and then be sure you have your stuff well contained to prevent the wind from infalting your canopy as you drive down the road. You would be surprised at how fast a well meaning civilian will drive to get you back to the DZ. Along those same lines, be aware if you put your stuff in the trunk of a car that there is nothing harmful in there.