Inboard / Outboard line stow D-bags? (Vector/Samurai)

[klafollette 0]

I just got a new Vector-3, with which the D-bag has the line stows on the side of the bag. Along with my new Vector, I have a new Samurai, and Brian Germain recommends inboard line-stows.

I understand the concept of inboard stows is to limit torque on the bag, reducing chance of line twists, and have read that the idea of side stows is to reduce # of stows and reducing chance of entanglement and bag-lock.

So which is the lesser of 2 evils? In my other Rig, a Mirage it has inboard line stows and have never had an entanglement or bag-lock in 600 jumps, but know that doesn't mean it can't happen, though I have had line-twists on both (unknown if they were stow related)

Mr. Booth, feel free to chime in with your thoughts. Just don't judge me because I have a collapsible pilot chute . At least it is one of yours.

[tdog 0]

Will someone please let me know what inboard and outboard stows are... I searched the forums and I found discussions but no definitions. I have the "stock" Vector 3 as sent by the factory and wonder what I have.

[billbooth 10]

I don't really have a firm opinion on this subject. Both type of line stows seem to work well. The only thing that is really important is that the locking stows do their job. We are currently "test jumping" inside line stow bags, and if we find any discernible differences, I'll let you know.

[mnealtx 0]

maybe stow locations that are "up the middle" (inboard) or on the edge of the bag (outboard)?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[klafollette 0]

"Inboard" line stows are on top the bag flap, about a 1/3 of the way inboard from each side.

"Outboard" line stows are on the side ends of the bag itself, at the edge of the bag lip.

[Samurai136 0]

I had about 600 jumps when I packed myself a bag-lock (and first save) with in-board line stows.

I think symetric orderly packing of the canopy and a stable deployment contributes more to on-heading opening, without line twists, than in-board vs. outboard stows.

There end up being more stows closer together with in-board stows which means there is more to check and more possible bag lock combinations. It only takes one line out of place to cause a bag-lock and it's harder to check them. Placement of the D-bag could disturb a line from one stow and loop it around a neighboring stow and you wouldn't know it since they are hidden in the bottom of the container.

Out-board stows are easier to inspect and control the placement in the container which is where the bag-lock happens.

The malfuction is easy enough to deal with but having done it once I felt it was a preventable malfunction by returning to out-board stows.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[nate_1979 9]

Quote

Out-board stows are easier to inspect and control the placement in the container which is where the bag-lock happens.

I'm finding the opposite to be true right now, mabey I just need to get used to it, but it just seems like the lines are less secure from getting inside eachother when they hang off the side of the bag, especially when putting into the container and closing it... ? ... I've only had inboard stows until now, jumping my new rig with outboards for the first time tomorrow..

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[luis 0]

Deja vu! I also have a Samurai in my old Mirage G3 and just got a new Vector, also wondering what to do with those inboard/outboard stows

[mnealtx 0]

Just my curiosity speaking...but what about a bag with inboard stows and some sort of "cover pocket" (or similar) for the exposed lines?

What I have in mind is something similar to a toggle keeper, but looser, so that lines wouldn't "bind up" inside of it. Perhaps with a finger hole in the ouboard side of the pocket, so you could make sure your lines were laying flat?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[ernokaikkonen 0]

How about a bag with just the locking stows, and the rest of the lines in a pouch on top of the bag like on reserves?

The one thing about bags with inboard stows that hasn't been mentioned yet: It reduces the possibility of line dump(yes, this time I do mean line dump) since the weight of the lines between rubber bands is equal to the weight of the lines outboard of the rubber bands.

With outboard stows there is more weight between the rubber bands than on the outside. During deployment the lines want to keep going when the bag is lifted off, and with less weight on the outboard side of the rubber bands there is an increased possibility of the lines "falling out through the middle".

This shouldn't have a large effect on deployment as the bag still stays closed until line-stretch, but it might increase the chances of lines entangling with the main container.

Since outboard stows with tight rubber bands have worked fine for decades this is, of course, mostly academic.

[riggermick 6]

Quote

How about a bag with just the locking stows, and the rest of the lines in a pouch on top of the bag like on reserves?

The one thing about bags with inboard stows that hasn't been mentioned yet: It reduces the possibility of line dump(yes, this time I do mean line dump) since the weight of the lines between rubber bands is equal to the weight of the lines outboard of the rubber bands.

With outboard stows there is more weight between the rubber bands than on the outside. During deployment the lines want to keep going when the bag is lifted off, and with less weight on the outboard side of the rubber bands there is an increased possibility of the lines "falling out through the middle".

This shouldn't have a large effect on deployment as the bag still stays closed until line-stretch, but it might increase the chances of lines entangling with the main container.

Since outboard stows with tight rubber bands have worked fine for decades this is, of course, mostly academic.

It's been done! In the late 70's the same concept was available on Security Systems one and two. It never took off due to the "quick pack jobs" to make the next load, People were too sloppy in their line management to make it work consistantly. The wheel (prop) turns again.

Mick.

[mnealtx 0]

Mick/Sparky/riggers et al

Any comment on my idea above?

I have in a mind a bag with inboard stows, but some sort of external keeper (elastic loops or something similar to a toggle keeper) to stow the free ends of the lines to help protect the bights of line and hopefully prevent baglocks .

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[ernokaikkonen 0]

Quote

I have in a mind a bag with inboard stows, but some sort of external keeper (elastic loops or something similar to a toggle keeper) to stow the free ends of the lines to help protect the bights of line and hopefully prevent baglocks .

There's no need for the stows apart from the locking stows. The elastic keepers alone would be enough; Atom and Icon reserve freebags have a system like that. It's not as easy to pack as a main bag though, but maybe it could be developed for main use. I don't know how well the elastics would hold up in use on a main bag.

That said, again, being the grumpy conservative person that I am, I just don't see the need. Adding more parts in the system means adding more parts that can malfunction. The current bags work fine, just make neat stows.

[mnealtx 0]

Erno,

I understand your point, and mostly agree with it - I know of the free-stow main bag that some people are using.

My thoughts were more on the subject of inboard stow bags, and the (slightly) increased possibility of a line-locked bag due to a stow "blowing over" another stow.

Having some sort of (loose) pocket or elastic to cover the free ends of the line bights would prevent that from happening, and could be made loose enough to pack easily while still protecting the lines from "blowing over" other line stows.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[riggerrob 558]

Several ejection seats incorporate cotton sleeves or flutes similar to what you suggested. These flutes are usually sewn to the outside of a quarter bag (i.e. C-9). They work great at deployment speeds greater than 250 knots, but take longer to pack. And you need extra tools: at least a pull-up cord, but military-surplus packing hooks make the job go much quicker.

[mnealtx 0]

I didn't realize that, about the ejection rigs...thanks for the info and the response.

Another related question... if the pockets were made v-shaped and open at both ends (where you could get a finger inside to "seat" the line groups), what do you feel the extra difficulty in packing would be? 10%? 20%? more?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706