nate_1979 9 #51 July 19, 2005 QuoteWhat is a 'Senior Packer'? It was the best way I could think to describe the person, ... He's not a rigger, but he's one of the senior packers at the DZ, it's not an official title, but it implies that he has packed a couple parachutes here and there and has a lot of experience that I can learn from. He is also the person that trained me to pack for my 'A' license. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #52 July 19, 2005 QuoteQuote My one and only bag lock was on a tandem because the packer double stowed the lines. Can you explain how double stowing can cause a baglock? Was the packer using tube stows or normal bungees? Last Saturday I had a weird opening, When I got back to the hanger an started packing and got to sorting out the D bag I noticed that the band on the last locking stow had doubled on it's self and I could not pull it through the grommet, My D bag has 4 locking stows, If the band had locked on stow 2 or 3 I would of been facing a bag lock malfunction. I always double stow, This is the first time I've experienced a band locking up. Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bluewaterstream 0 #53 July 19, 2005 QuoteI think the line management on a reserve is a side issue here. We use a line stow pocket on free bags because when you are at 750 feet doing 120 mph line dump is a lesser evil than line hesitation. For you maybe, but it seems very relevant to me. I don’t see the line management on a reserve as a “side issue” at all. By applying similar line management logic and methods that are used on my reserve, on my main I’ve been able to achieve line stretch faster (not line dump) and prevent the d-bag from spinning up by rocking back & forth while unstowing unnecessarily tight stows during deployment, which has relieved me from experiencing line twists and off-heading openings. Achieving line stretch faster in an organized and controlled manner gives the d-bag less time to dance around and create problems. “Take a look at the line management of your reserve - a few locking stows and the rest of the lines are free stowed in an organized manner” Note “organized manner”. As in lines are placed in an organized manner in the line stow pocket on a free bag for a reserve & lines are placed in an organized manner using somewhat loose single line stows for the main. In my mind, an organized (in sequence) deployment should prevent line dump. Achieving full line stretch quickly is not line dump. An out of sequence deployment that causes slack in the lines during deployment is how I would define line dump. Line hesitation caused by tight stows can cause deployment problems – achieving full line stretch quickly in an organized manner will not cause deployment problems. If you believe it will, please explain and give examples. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettpobastad 0 #54 July 19, 2005 QuoteWe use a line stow pocket on free bags because when you are at 750 feet doing 120 mph line dump is a lesser evil than line hesitation. Incorrect. We stow reserve canopy suspension lines in a pouch as opposed to rubber band line stows because it is more mechanically efficient during deployment. The bagged canopy is much less prone to twist or flip from side to side because the lines are extracted from the middle as opposed to from one side to the other as with rubber band deployed d-bags. Lines that are stowed in a free bag pouch do not by design, speed up deployment. The reason more jumpers don't use this type of line stow system is because the manufacturers send us the equipment with the little rubber band stow dealies on the side of the main d-bag! Why do they do that? Because they don't want to have count on the average jumper to stow the lines in the pouch the right way or neat enough. Rubber band d-bags are compromise. Thats why the newer style of bag with the line stow points are closer to the center line of the bag and on the face of it, similar to where the stow pouch is on a free bag. Get it? Line dump is the lesser of two evils than line hesitation? No it's not. Especially on a reserve!"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettpobastad 0 #55 July 19, 2005 QuoteI was trying to say that if all your line stows are sloppy, mis-matched rubber bands, etc .... double wrapping the last few stows (close to risers) will mask a variety of sins. It is called erring on the side of caution. Kinda like fucking a fat chick and not telling your friends, right? No, sorry! I see what you mean."It's only arrogance if you can't back it up" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettpobastad 0 #56 July 19, 2005 QuoteOn the ground, pulling on the lines with my foot on the bridle, the stows refused to unstow. Sorry, ain't buyin' this one. There has to be something else going on here. I can see a tube stoe, maybe...doing something like that but not any type of mil-spec rubber band of any size. Did you and the passenger wheigh 163 lbs combined? Are you sure the reserve wasn't out and inflated when you deployed the main? That would definately slow you down enough! And if my rubber bands refused to unstow on the ground like they did to you, well...I would, for sure, give them a good talking-to!"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettpobastad 0 #57 July 19, 2005 QuoteFor you maybe, but it seems very relevant to me. For someone so young in the sport, you have much wisdom and understanding, grasshopper."It's only arrogance if you can't back it up" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettpobastad 0 #58 July 19, 2005 Quotebut it implies that he has packed a couple parachutes here and there Hey, sorry Nate! Didn't mean to dog your man. And as you read some of these replies, you should be able to see that just because the feds gave a guy a riggers ticket doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about. Be carefull who you listen to. Just because their 'Senior' to you doesn't mean that you have to take what they say at face value. In regards to what he told you, and maybe I missed something, but...it would be pretty unlikely that a group of lines (still stowed or already unstowed) would find their way into the loop of another stowed group of lines because that stow was too long? I'm not even sure that was a proper sentence right there. I must have mis-read your description."It's only arrogance if you can't back it up" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #59 July 19, 2005 naw, I think you got what I was told right... I agree it would be a really "bad luck day" to have such a malfunction occur, if it could... I would prefer to make that chance as low as possible though, a baglock just does not sound like something I want to take a chance with Although I dont really like stowing a ton of excess line under the bag in the container, I have not had any issues with this method either, and my openings have taken less altitude since I started doing it (which is ok because I was getting 800-1000ft openings) FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettpobastad 0 #60 July 19, 2005 There's always a chance that anything can happen in this goddam sport! Hell, there's a chance that one of these day 'ol Hook n' pile will say something that makes some sense. I think that the chances of what you are going out of your way to guard against is extremely unlikely to happen. And how you are going about it may create other issues that are even worse."It's only arrogance if you can't back it up" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #61 July 19, 2005 QuoteThere's always a chance that anything can happen in this goddam sport! Hell, there's a chance that one of these day 'ol Hook n' pile will say something that makes some sense. Considering some of the rigging work that Derek has done, I'll go with his views on this one. I've also heard from another rigger in my area about double-stows potentially causing bag lock as it has happened to him As for me, I use the right size stows, and hell, given the choice, I'd rather free-stow my lines anyway. I just need to get around to sewing a pocket on my D-bag.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #62 July 19, 2005 QuoteNot true. It has a whole lot to do with how hard or how soft your parachute opens. Jumpers think (correctly) that if they double stow their lines they will slow down that part of the opening process. What many do not understand is that if you slow down this part of the process too much, the bagged canopy now has time to catch up to the speed of the jumper, thus resulting in more 'opening shock' because that faster moving mass of nylon will fill up with are faster and hammer your fat ass! (sorry, got a bit carried away there for a sec) You can see how a pilot chute that is worn out or too small would make it worse. You can see how tight jumpsuits faster freefall speeds might also affect openings. You are right to a point. Faster deployment speeds mean harder opening. But that is because the faster speeds decrease the fill time and a decreased fill time will make the slider less effective as a reefing device. It is still the slider size, design and packing plus the fill time of the canopy that affect the opening shock. By doing things to increase the canopy speed as it comes out of the bag you decrease fill time. Harder openings Check the pictures attached to post 12 of this tread. I have been jumping this bag for over a 1000 jumps. No problem. Sparky http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1689723;#1689723My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #63 July 19, 2005 Quote Sorry, ain't buyin' this one. There has to be something else going on here. I can see a tube stoe, maybe...doing something like that but not any type of mil-spec rubber band of any size. You don't have to buy it. It happened, you can believe it, or not. Quote Did you and the passenger wheigh 163 lbs combined? Well in excess of 163 pounds. QuoteAre you sure the reserve wasn't out and inflated when you deployed the main? That would definately slow you down enough! Um, very sure. After the long trap door and looking over my shoulder to confirm the bag lock, I cutaway, hesitated a second because the main was slow to release, and the fired the reserve. No RSL. QuoteAnd if my rubber bands refused to unstow on the ground like they did to you, well...I would, for sure, give them a good talking-to! I just made sure the packers didn't double wrap the rubber bands anymore. Problem solved. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bluewaterstream 0 #64 July 19, 2005 QuoteFor someone so young in the sport, you have much wisdom and understanding, grasshopper. Thanks for the compliment. I'm really not so young in the sport though, I have over 100 jumps. Want an autograph? I'm actually training to become a rigger, so I do quite a bit of research and I tend to question everything and everyone in this sport (i.e. - riggers, instructors, people with more "experience", etc.). I also have an extremely knowledgeable rigger that I train with. Much of that "wisdom and understanding" that you complimented me on, I can thank him for. I've learned quite a bit from him. Maybe you know him - his name's Derek (aka: "ol Hook n' pile" / Hooknswoop). Ohh... the irony. John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #65 July 19, 2005 Did you do that, freestow in the pocket, to reduce the twisting of the bag by the stows durning line stretch? I ask, because I have noticed I rarely get an on heading opening. My canopy does tend to hunt, that is turn this way and that, while inflating, and usually dives a liitle right at the end. My brakes are set with about six inches of slack, which might contribute to the diving. But since I play with the front risers, that seems to be OK. I've only had half a line twist, 180 degrees, once or twice out of 40 jumps. So, I think the stows are only causing slight if any twisting of the bag during line stretch. As far as I can tell, the hunting is due to uneven infation durning that time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettpobastad 0 #66 July 20, 2005 Quote You are right to a point. Faster deployment speeds mean harder opening. But that is because the faster speeds decrease the fill time and a decreased fill time will make the slider less effective as a reefing device. Spark First of all, I think we actually agree in principle on the double-stow issue. Not needed, could cause other problems...right? But your statement....QuoteIt is still the slider size, design and packing plus the fill time of the canopy that affect the opening shock ...doesn't even begin to account for all the factors that contribute to hard openings. The size, type and condition of the pilot chute, bridle length, body position, the jumpers weight, the size of the canopy...and on an on. Including how you deal with stowing your lines. How fast or how slow the lines are pulled from the bag (line extraction) dictates how hard or how soft the 'force' of your 'snatch' will be. (Hey! I like that one! Snatch Force! Somebody should do an all wimmin's 4-way team and call it that.) And Snatch Force will affect the next part of the opening sequence, which of course is 'Opening Shock'. That D-bag deal of your's is right on! That's what I'm talking about That's making my point for me! You do not need to double stow to slow down your opening. A finer point that I think you are missing is that if you do double stow, you may actually increase the overall opening shock. Brett Notes: 1. That bag design looks great. Is that your design? Kerri Farrington has something similar. 2. You put that bag into the wrong hands and your asking for trouble. That type of deployment device (much like a reserve freebag) calls for more care and tecnique when stowing. 3. All you posters out there getting ready to tell me about the team SNATCH FORCE. Don't bother."It's only arrogance if you can't back it up" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettpobastad 0 #67 July 20, 2005 QuoteMaybe you know him - his name's Derek (aka: "ol Hook n' pile" / Hooknswoop). Ohh... the irony. Really? No Shit! I'll have to give him back 25 points."It's only arrogance if you can't back it up" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettpobastad 0 #68 July 20, 2005 QuoteMaybe you know him - his name's Derek (aka: "ol Hook n' pile" / Hooknswoop). Ohh... the irony. Wait a second....you're not 'Pookie-Bear' are you?"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #69 July 20, 2005 Quote A finer point that I think you are missing is that if you do double stow, you may actually increase the overall opening shock. And you are making my point. The things you mention can and sometimes do cause a faster speed at the time the canopy comes out of the bag. This faster speed will decrease the fill time and the causes a more "crisp" opening. As I have said, slider and fill time are what determine opening loads. And these loads, amount and duration, determine felt "opening shock". Yes the bag is my design. I made it several years ago and it is the only one I have or will make. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bluewaterstream 0 #70 July 20, 2005 QuoteReally? No Shit! I'll have to give him back 25 points. QuoteWait a second....you're not 'Pookie-Bear' are you? Come on man, I'm no Pookie-Bear. Since I refuse to ever call him that, I totally forgot about that nickname. Here, I'll update it: "Maybe you know him - his name's Derek (aka: "ol Hook n' pile" / Hooknswoop / Pookie-Bear). Ohh... the irony." Funny shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #71 July 20, 2005 QuoteDid you do that, freestow in the pocket, to reduce the twisting of the bag by the stows durning line stretch? I did it for several reasons one of which is I am lazy and two I have a low boredom threshold. But mainly to prove a theory I had about "line dump" and bag whip caused by line stows. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettpobastad 0 #72 July 20, 2005 I guess it doesn't matter which one of us thinks he said it first (I did!) We seem to agree on whats going on out there during the entire canopy opening process. Now if we can only get these other 'Huck-Bobs" to pay attention. QuoteYes the bag is my design. I made it several years ago and it is the only one I have or will make. Then you won't mind if I lift your design, right? Hey Sparky! If you don't mind me asking, when and where did you make your first jump? Mine was July of '76 in Toledo, Washington."It's only arrogance if you can't back it up" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettpobastad 0 #73 July 20, 2005 QuoteCome on man, I'm no Pookie-Bear. Since I refuse to ever call him that, I totally forgot about that nickname. Here, I'll update it: "Maybe you know him - his name's Derek (aka: "ol Hook n' pile" / Hooknswoop / Pookie-Bear). Ohh... the irony." Ahh,haa,ha... You're all right, my man! Brett"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigger_john 0 #74 July 20, 2005 Incorrect. We stow reserve canopy suspension lines in a pouch as opposed to rubber band line stows because it is more mechanically efficient during deployment. The bagged canopy is much less prone to twist or flip from side to side because the lines are extracted from the middle as opposed to from one side to the other as with rubber band deployed d-bags. Lines that are stowed in a free bag pouch do not by design, speed up deployment. While I agree that is true, it is a bonus of the design rather than the design critria. The original manufacturer of the free bag system. (para flight?) went for a pouch because the wanted to eliminate stows. They wanted to eliminate stows because hesitation of lines on a reserve is a bad bad thing. I'm not saying the free bag is supposed to dump the lines, clearly that would be a stupid idea, I am saying that they can, and that given a choice between a system that could possibly dump your lines and one that could hessitate the deployment of your lines, then dumping them is the lesser of the two evils. I accept that you have the right to belive hessitation would be a more palatable choice than line dump. I would rather dump my reserve lines than tow my free bagged canopy into the ground I am aware that the free bag doesn't speed up the deployment, It does however eliminate a possibility of the deployment being slowed down. As for rubberband dbags bing a compromise, is John Sherman aware of that or the french, or the manufactures of the Icon? I doubt if there is a single correct answer to the question as to if it is better or not to use a particular system on a free bag, but the point I was making was that free bag systems are a side issue in a disscusion about double stowing rubber bands._________________________________________ Nullius in Verba Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harksaw 0 #75 July 21, 2005 Was it those double-wide Vector tandem bands they double stowed and didn't break? I could imagine that happening. I couldn't imagine a three foot wide drouge not breaking a regular rubber band at terminal. I've also had several tandem instructors, including a Strong examiner, tell me I needed to double wrap the stows to keep from getting line dump.__________________________________________________ I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
I couldn't imagine a three foot wide drouge not breaking a regular rubber band at terminal.
I've also had several tandem instructors, including a Strong examiner, tell me I needed to double wrap the stows to keep from getting line dump.
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.
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