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Cayce

Can't stall with toggles?

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I've been concerned that my break lines were set for a taller person as I purchased my equipment used. I can't stall the canopy with toggle input. I try up high, even with an aggressive stab and it only slows down but never really stalls. I also feel like my landings should have a little more flare at the end but it's just not there with a full toggle extension. Recently I've been working with my rear risers a lot (up high) and I can fully stall the canopy with rear risers.

My question is this: should I be able to fully stall the canopy the same way with toggles? Should I work with my rigger to get my break lines shortened?

Thanks.

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Why should pulling the toggles down fully stall the canopy? Wouldn't that mean that every no wind landing would end with you stalling your canopy as the only way to stop it? So if you were to flare fully at about 10 feet too high the canopy would stall (which is a partial collapse right?) and dump you on your ass... which could be a very bad thing at slightly higher elevations.

Doesn't make sense that you should be able to stall the canopy just from a regular flare, but I could be wrong.


Jen
Arianna Frances

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The ability to fully stall it doesn't mean you have to stall it while landing. If your available toggle 'stroke' is a long way from being able to stall, then you can't get the best landing performance out of your canopy.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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Take what I say with a grain of salt.:)
But this was one of the questions that came up in a canopy control class I took about a month ago.

It is absolutely normal not to be able to stall your canopy just by regular toggle input. I have to take too raps around the toggles before I can stall my canopy. Also there are a lot of people who think they know what a stall is. Note that your canopy will fold in the middle and your right and left end cells will touch(Much different then a rear riser stall). So your canopy will no longer even remotely look like a rectangle. If you do try this do it up high as re-inflating the canopy can result in line twist.

I felt the same way about my canopy as if i did not have that last bit of lift. After the class i relized it was not the canopy but me not being smooth enough.

Good Luck

and don't forget i only have 144 jumps:)
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

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If you have short risers, you will not have as long of a control stroke. The canopy must be in full flight with the toggles all the way up. With short risers, this toggle position is not as high above your shoulders as with longer risers. You can only pull down as far as your arms are long, so starting lower means less toggle stroke.

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Hey jen, notice i said "holding them there" My canopies will stall if i hold my toggles as deep as possible for a few seconds. I have jumped many others that will as well. A "quick stab" like the original poster said, will not stall it usually.

Your scenario is why they say not to flare too high, and if you do, stop your hands where they are till you get closer to the ground and THEN finish the flare so you don't stall the canopy at 20 feet.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

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It is absolutely normal not to be able to stall your canopy just by regular toggle input. I have to take too raps around the toggles before I can stall my canopy. Also there are a lot of people who think they know what a stall is. Note that your canopy will fold in the middle and your right and left end cells will touch(Much different then a rear riser stall). So your canopy will no longer even remotely look like a rectangle. If you do try this do it up high as re-inflating the canopy can result in line twist.



This is correct for almost every canopy. Very few people have actually put their canopy in a full on stall. If you have, you will remember it.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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My question is this: should I be able to fully stall the canopy the same way with toggles? Should I work with my rigger to get my break lines shortened?

Thanks.



Question is easy, answer not.
Depends of:
Your weight
Canopy type
Canopy size

I can stall mine very easy with the steering toggles
(Well a stiletto 107). Very funny. There is always at least one person thinking I have a problem and have to breakaway.
On the other hand stalling a sabre 170 (with only steeringlines) is not so easy (I'm 70kg)

I've stalled (till collapse) almost all canopies I've flown including ones a tandemcanopy in an attempt to clear a tension knot in 3 A-lines. (1A-line de-knotted, leaving a small controllable distorsion which was easy managable. Saved me a breakaway)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

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Not being an expert I will say that I load a Spectre 210 at approx. 1.1, and I have to wrap the steering lines several times around my wrists to stall it. I wrote PD-support to ask if this was OK, or if I needed to shorten the brake line length. Here's their reply:

Kim, PD-Support
Quote

To answer your second question about the stall point of your Spectre 210, it is common to have to wrap the lines 2 or 3 times around your wrist to get a larger canopy to stall (collapse). 2 inches of slack in your brake lines in full flight is exactly what you want, and shortening them could cause your canopy to never achieve full flight and impair its performance. Your canopy should not stall (collapse) to achieve full flare, so there is no reason to shorten your brake lines.



Not the same canopy or wingloading, so take it for what it is...
HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

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I have the same situation. I have some slack on my brakes. I cant stall my canopy: I can fly 20+ seconds in full brakes without stall. I think its no point to make my brakes shorter, because I pull some brakes if I pull my front risers deeply.

I'm satisfied with my flare power. Remember, flare is not just brake position...it has other factors too: speed and angle of attack. If I want to a softer landing I should use less last minute input on brakes and let it fly.

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It is absolutely normal not to be able to stall your canopy just by regular toggle input. I have to take too raps around the toggles before I can stall my canopy. Also there are a lot of people who think they know what a stall is. Note that your canopy will fold in the middle and your right and left end cells will touch(Much different then a rear riser stall). So your canopy will no longer even remotely look like a rectangle. If you do try this do it up high as re-inflating the canopy can result in line twist.



This is correct for almost every canopy. Very few people have actually put their canopy in a full on stall. If you have, you will remember it.

Sparky



But they sure are fun man :D
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

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The ability to fully stall it doesn't mean you have to stall it while landing. If your available toggle 'stroke' is a long way from being able to stall, then you can't get the best landing performance out of your canopy.



No.

When you pull on the toggles quick enough, the canopy slows down, you keep going forwards, it pitches back, the angle of attack goes up, the airflow separates from the top, and it stalls.

You don't get any pitching action when you slowly apply the toggles so it takes a LOT more to stall.

Landing is more like the first situation.

Canopies _really_ vary. My Fox 245 and Dagger 244 take less input to stall in steady flight than my Samurai 105. I can't stall my Monarch 135 without taking a wrap arround my fingers.

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