Rubberbandless d-bags

[diveout 0]

www.veloctiyrigs.com

try sending an e-mail maybee, they may have been experimenting with a design...

[ernokaikkonen 0]

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I know a few guys that refuse to jump them anymore after several bag locks in a short number of jumps. It's a bad feeling to throw out your PC and have nothing happen.

I only have experience with the prototype Sun Path stowless bags, but with those, bag locks are a result of a packing error. I've packed them for a full season with no bag locks, and they've worked fine for this season as well.

If you pack the canopy in the bag in such a way that the slider grommets(on the inside of the bag) are resting against the bag closing tabs(on the outside), that prevents the tabs from flipping open.

What "I Heard"(so it's just hearsay) is that since Sun Path couldn't idiot-proof the system they're no longer offering the bags even for testing. Bummer.

[Ron 7]

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What "I Heard"(so it's just hearsay) is that since Sun Path couldn't idiot-proof the system they're no longer offering the bags even for testing. Bummer.

Why would you want a bag that can actually increase the chance of a mal?

What types of mals would these bags SOLVE?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rigging65 0]

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What types of mals would these bags SOLVE?

Bag locks caused by locking loops overlapping each other...something that is pretty easily fixed by proper packing technique.

Tuck tabs worked well for me, but they basically create a finite pack volume in the bag (as opposed to a range), because when you fit the tuck tabs for the proper tension, the volume has to be kept the same or else the tabs get too loose, or they won't close without bending. In my experience, even a sloppy vs. clean packjob changes the volume enough to effect the tabs. It might be that going from Florida to Arizona would change the volume enough to cause problems (due to changes in humidity)...who knows.

Long ago, in a similar thread, I stated that, IMO, stowless bags are a cool gadget, but without much practical application...and they are downright dangerous for the average, un-informed, user. There's just too much variance in volume to be really practical, IMO.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[phoenixlpr 0]

How do you organize lines in that pocket?

[mjosparky 3]

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How do you organize lines in that pocket?

"S" flold them in just like in a reserve molar bag.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[phoenixlpr 0]

Ah, I don't pack reserves, just jump them :).

Isn't there any issue that lines are free and not slowed down like with those rubber bands?

[mjosparky 3]

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Ah, I don't pack reserves, just jump them :).

Isn't there any issue that lines are free and not slowed down like with those rubber bands?

The pocket keeps them in order and they play out smoothly without the bag whip caused by stows on either side of the bag. Rubber bands do not slow down the bag enough to even worry about. They are only there to keep them neat until line stretch. The 2 locking stows keep the canopy in the bag until line stretch.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[phoenixlpr 0]

What is the downside of that design?
It looks perfect for me after replacing velcro with tuck tubs.

[parachutist 1]

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Sparky, have you considered ditching the velcro and putting tuck tabs on the bag instead? I've got some ideas on how a bag could work but I don't have the materials to make it. Using locking stows solves the sizing issue the manufactors are fighting right now.

Phree:
I think HMA in such a configuration would be prone to tension knots. For HMA-lined canopies I always like to have the lines stretched out tight across top of D-bag. HAve you tried HMA in such a config, or spoken with anyone who has?

Chris W

[mjosparky 3]

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What is the downside of that design?
It looks perfect for me after replacing velcro with tuck tubs.

I have not found a down side to the one I use. I use Dacron lines so I don't have the Velcro snag problem that spectra does. As mentioned before, tuck tabs might be better if you leave about 3 inches in the center for the lines to play out. Then again, if the line hangs up and a tuck tap doesn't release. I would have to give one a try for a couple of hundred jumps, some with slo-mo film, before I would feel comfortable with it.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[phoenixlpr 0]

I've asked one jumper, he is not a rigger, but packing reserves. He has told me that not legal in Finland because of some old fatality.....and also mentioned fast and hard opening.

Anyway, I've just seen a freebag, so velcro and lines can be kept away.

[airtwardo 6]

Sparky~

Get a pic of your bag...I'm trying to imagine, but show & tell works so much better with folks of my ethnic background!

You have tons of jumps on it...any 'unusual' wear anywhere? Lines..Bag...anywhere?

(Sure wish I'd paid attention last time you were here)

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[peterk 0]

So, I can't find any downsides to why these aren't out there for competent packers/jumpers. If freestowing lines is black death, think about that when you have your next cutaway. I haven't heard of any problems with the system on reserve freebags, haven't had any problems with the freestowing on my BASE jumps, and think this is another example of good ideas that are ready, but fear of trying new and better systems keeps us from moving ahead with making skydiving gear better.

If anyone with rigging skills, (not necessarily a rigger), is willing to make me one, I will pay for the time and materials and will test jump it 6-10 times a day. Rubber bands holding lines just seems so early 2005.

---------------
Peter
BASE - The Ultimate Victimless Crime

[mjosparky 3]

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Sparky~

Get a pic of your bag...I'm trying to imagine, but show & tell works so much better with folks of my ethnic background!

You have tons of jumps on it...any 'unusual' wear anywhere? Lines..Bag...anywhere?

(Sure wish I'd paid attention last time you were here)

Jim,

Look on post 12 of this thread. I posted some pictures. It is just like a normal bag but with a line stow pocket on the side. The pocket works the same way the line stow pocket on a reserve free bag.

I have around 1,000, plus or minus, jumps on the same bag. I have replace the pile Velcro twice. It is about a 10 minute job with a single needle. I have Dacron lines on all my canopies and have not noticed any excessive wear from the Velcro. I get 700 to 800 jumps from a set of lines, but then the canopy is jumped out also. I jump sharpchuters that are made of F-111.

I made it because I hate running down a rubber band every time one breaks, I am lazy and I hate to pack. I use tube stows for the locking stows just to hold the bag closed until line stretch. The use of line stows has nothing at all to do with how the canopy opens. The canopy is still in the bag when the lines are coming out of any stows on the bag. Canopy opening does not start until after line stretch and the bag is gone.

To repeat what I said in post 24.

As far as I can tell the bag has had no effect on my openings at all. After jumping this bag for several hundred jumps and making about 500 jumps without the use of a bag of any kind, I am convinced that there are only two things that affect the opening of a ram-air canopy. 1. The fill time, which is a function of design and can be controlled by how the nose is handled during packing. 2. Size and design of the slider and how it is handled during packing. (referring to how hard it opens)

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggerrob 558]

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So, I can't find any downsides to why these aren't out there for competent packers/jumpers. If freestowing lines is black death, think about that when you have your next cutaway. I haven't heard of any problems with the system on reserve freebags, haven't had any problems with the freestowing on my BASE jumps, and think this is another example of good ideas that are ready, but fear of trying new and better systems keeps us from moving ahead with making skydiving gear better.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Let's keep our terminology straight.
"Freestowing" means coiling or figure-8ing lines in the pack tray, with zero rubber bands, Velcro, tuck tabs, etc.
Freestowing is worse than Type 1 deployment because you just have a mess of lines laying loose in the pack tray.
Freestowing fell out of fashion 25 years ago after a couple of guys died when their lines half-hitched around side flaps of Wonderhogs. In the early 1980s, Para-Flite hated free-stowing so much that they shipped free main d-bags with every new canopy.

On the other hand, line stow pockets are well proven, installed on most reserve free bags, BASE tail pockets and some Canopy Formation rigs. I have even made a few hundred jumps with a line stow pocket on my main d-bag, similar to mjosparky's.

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[mjosparky 3]

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Freestowing fell out of fashion 25 years ago after a couple of guys died when their lines half-hitched around side flaps of Wonderhogs.

Rob,

I was one of the guys jumping my main with out a bag and "free stowing" the lines in the pack tray. It was called "trash packing". I made about 500 jumps that way. I also had a line group half-hitch on the main inspection flap of a Streamlite. At about 1,000 feet I fired the reserve into it. The P/C got by the mess and I am convinced the fact I was using a diapered round saved my butt. And yes, that was my last jump with "free stowed" lines.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[jrcrackers 0]

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HAve you tried HMA in such a config, or spoken with anyone who has?

Yes, it works very well. You can leave the pocket open with no need for either velcro or tuck tabs. Placing the pocket properly will put tension on the pocket and keep things in order very nicely. I've been jumping this with HMA lines and have other people testing this bag all with HMA lines. So far I have not found a problem