Do skydivers care about safety? Bill Booth

[skydived19006 4]

I almost always learn something when reading Bill Booths posts, and I love this article by Bill! It really puts things in perspective.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=19

Not the reason for my post though. I’m in the process of ordering a new V3, I’m the type of guy that would like to have a concretively loaded reserve (240 geared PD 218), and a 1.5 loaded main (Icarus 159). Problem is rigs are not configured for this combination of canopies!

Bill, help me out! What happened to safety over style?

I know it’s because this is what people want, and the manufacturer has to make what sells. I’ll work out my little issue directly (through my dealer) with RWS. I just thought it would be interesting for us all to get Bills thoughts on the issue.

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[EricaH 0]

Not that this addresses your issue (which I completely understand), but....
someone at my dz was saying that Infinity will make a container to fit basically any size main (with in reason of course). The person in question jumps a 97 main & has a 135 reserve.

There are other issues here in that you NEVER would want to deal w/ a 2 out situation in that set-up... but that wasn't your question.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[katzurki 0]

So will, for that matter, Racer. Someone on dz.com has a 218 reserve with a sub-100 main in their Racer...

But, I digress. The question is about Vector, let it stay there...

[AndyMan 7]

Wings will, too.

I'm curious how well that works, because you don't have to travel very far to hear people complain about how their Wings container doesnt' fit very well, or has oddities like flaps popping open. I've often wondered if there is a connection.

Other manufacturers don't do it because they say it's too complicated to figure out the patterns. That makes sense to me as an engineer. Even with CAD systems, the complexity is enormous! Just last week Bill Booth was complaining about the number of options on a rig already, even without having to dynamically scale for every canopy combination.

I digress.

The argument that you should have similarly sized canopies because "two out sucks" never made sense to me. Having two out is perhaps the simplest malfunction to avoid. Respect your hard decks and an AAD fire is pretty unlikely. Modern gear rarely results in accidental reserve activation.

Contrast that with the thought that landing your reserve downwind into a tight area off the DZ can be pretty common, it makes more sense to me for someone to jump a reserve they can land anywhere, anytime than it does to jump two canopies of the same size.

People should jump a reserve they can land anytime, anywhere.

Of course this begs the question, why aren't we all jumping with SET-400's?

Why don't we assume canopy skills apply to both canopies? When I ordered my PDR143 I knew that I could fly my Stileto 150 reasonably safely, so I figured how much harder to land could a modern reserve possibly be? I got a demo, landed it 5 times downwind (even off the DZ once) just to see if I could. Of course I could. Not surprisingly, the skills I had under my main were just as useful under the demo reserve.

If someone flys a hotshot postage-stamp sized main but thinks they need a 230 reserve in order to land safely... I find that a bit odd. I'm not going to argue the point, but it seems that either they're being overconfident on their main, or under confident on their reserve.

Eric's 97 and 135 aren't that different in size anyways, are they? I'd guess they'd probably play well togeather anyways.

Gotta run,

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[divnswoop 0]

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If someone flys a hotshot postage-stamp sized main but thinks they need a 230 reserve in order to land safely... I find that a bit odd. I'm not going to argue the point, but it seems that either they're being overconfident on their main, or under confident on their reserve.

Maybe they are thinking along the lines of a safe landing under their reserve if they somehow got knocked out and couldn't fly the the canopy?......

[skydived19006 4]

I've seen a couple of instances where a cypress saved someone. The first was a jumper who got over a formation dropped on it, and dislocated both shoulders. Now think about landing a hot shot reserve in someone’s back yard without the ability to use the toggles! Even with a rather large reserve you're looking at an ambulance ride, but with a highly loaded reserve it may be a meat wagon ride, directly to the morgue. I could land a 150 sf reserve loaded at 1.5 in good, and bad circumstances, it’s the worst case that’s the problem. The main’s there to have fun with, the reserve’s there to save our lives!

I just thought it was seriously ironic that Bill is so often preaching how skydivers are all about style over safety, then I find that you’re almost forced to match canopy sizes in his containers! Seems more reasonable to expect that people would have a larger reserve than main than reserve these days with the common main canopy loading.

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[skymedic 0]

My wings has a 218-M and a stilleto 150...it is sized for a 135....it works much better than my previous stock sized wings.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[caspar 0]

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I just thought it was seriously ironic that Bill is so often preaching how skydivers are all about style over safety, then I find that you’re almost forced to match canopy sizes in his containers!

what containers does he design?

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[arlo 0]

bill booth is the owner of the (uninsured) relative workshop. they manufacture the vector 3s/microns and also the sigma tandem rigs.

[gus 1]

When I was looking around for a new rig I wanted a Vector but I also wanted a 99 main and that meant having a pretty small reserve (like a PDR 106). So I bought a Wings and they built me a great container for a 99 main and a 126 reserve. It's completely solid, as far as I'm aware nothing's every come open in freefall.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[dragon2 0]

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The argument that you should have similarly sized canopies because "two out sucks" never made sense to me. Having two out is perhaps the simplest malfunction to avoid. Respect your hard decks and an AAD fire is pretty unlikely. Modern gear rarely results in accidental reserve activation.

Contrast that with the thought that landing your reserve downwind into a tight area off the DZ can be pretty common, it makes more sense to me for someone to jump a reserve they can land anywhere, anytime than it does to jump two canopies of the same size.

People should jump a reserve they can land anytime, anywhere.

Exactly my thoughts!

And I did have a 2 out once, and even with a 230 main and a 256 reserve they downplaned eventually. So I just get a reserve I trust myself with, regardless of what I'm jumping as a main.
I got into a discussion on a different forum with a guy who won't repack a rig if the size difference between main and reserve is too big in his opinion (30% or more), both ways, unless the main is very small.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[klafollette 0]

When you order, decide what canopies you want and they will size the rig accordingly. If you want a reserve bigger than the main, they'll work something out if the difference isn't too outrageous. I sized mine with a PD 176R and a Samurai 170. They gave me a V348M. Looks/fits awesome.

Having a huge difference in reserve/main could make for an interesting ride if you ever have 2 out.

[Ron 7]

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The argument that you should have similarly sized canopies because "two out sucks" never made sense to me. Having two out is perhaps the simplest malfunction to avoid

They still happen..You jump an AAD? You should never get knocked out, so why have one? Same reason.

Quote

If someone flys a hotshot postage-stamp sized main but thinks they need a 230 reserve in order to land safely... I find that a bit odd. I'm not going to argue the point, but it seems that either they're being overconfident on their main, or under confident on their reserve.

Some Valid lines of reasoning:
1. Most don't know how a reserve flies, so they like the idea of having a bigger canopy to be safer. I have ~3600 jumps on mains. Of those ~1,300 are on 7cell F-111 canopies....How many do you have on 7cell F-111 canopies? Most people don't have many if even one. They do fly differently. I can land (and have) a Xbraced 69....I don't know a single person who would want to land a 69 reserve.

2. There is a much greatter chance of landing off with a reserve than a main. Due to the simple fact that somethingw ent wrong...You ahve a much greater chance of landing off...People get killed landing the main they have jumped several maybe hundred times when landing off. They want a bigger canopy in case they have to land in an unfamiliar area.

3. If you are under a reserve...That means shit happend. Most are going to be jazzed (My last mal was the first that didn't phaze me, no emotion at all...And I have 6). People who are excited make mistakes. They want a bigger canopy to minimize the chance they will get hurt.

4. You could be hurt or knocked out. Would you rather land a 113 or a 240 if you were not going to be able to flair?

In reality most mix these up. The same reason people jump with an AAD incase something happens.

In this case it is the chance of an off landing, on unfamiliar equipment (5 jumps is not much, but kudos to you for doing at least that much), While being excited and pumped up on adrenalin, while landing maybe injured...Makes them want a bigger reserve.

I agree with it, even if I don't really practice it. I *almost* bought a 106 for my second rig...But I have 6 good rides on a 113, and I don't see the need...So I got another 113.

But back to topic, you are 100% correct on why "whatever size canopies you want"...Is not a great idea. If you get a combination that has never been made before it is not going to be "right". This is one reaosn I never got the old Icarus "whatever size you want" canopy thing....Sure, you can program a computer to cut things to scale, but reality does not scale with it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Speed2000 0]

Paratec will also custom size Next and Next Century containers to fit smaller main/larger reserve configurations.

[FrogNog 1]

Do any manufacturers suggest, as a method to get a small main and a large reserve, using a rig with a large reserve container and a main container as small as is normally constructed with that reserve size, then adding a pillow into the main container?

It seems to me that is someone would be willing to jump with a rig that holds a 210 reserve and 170 main, they shouldn't have a problem with jumping the same size rig but putting a pillow in the main container so their 120 main fits.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[Zoter 0]

In view of this thread....whats peoples opinion/experiences flying radically different main /reserve combos' in a two out...??
Whilst its known that radically different main/reserve combos would probably make flying a two out configuration 'difficult' at least......another train of thought says that main/reserve outs may fly badly/unpredictably anyway.....so just make sure your reserve is as big , docile and dependable as possible.
I remember watching the videos and reading about the 'dual square project' that PD ( I think) did which I think concluded that the best thing is to have similar size main and reserves....

Interested to hear others experience/thoughts/theories in this context

[RMURRAY 1]

I borrowed gear (once) and ened up with a 120 Jedei and 120 Tempo 2 out situation. It was in a biplane but it was not that stable at all since (I think) the lines lengths were very close. I was determined not to make the situation potentially worse and landed it but it was a handful the whole time. I'd say avoiding the situation is key and size the reserve to land with only it out in a tight landing area. My own gear is a 97 main and 150 reserve.

rm

[tso-d_chris 0]

I am of the opinion that it makes little sense to have an AAD if you do not have a reserve large enough to survive an unconscious landing.

Reserves are for times when things are going wrong. You may not be 100% when you have to land it. Its size should not require you to be at the absolute top of your game in order to walk awway from the landing.

Jumpers can take precautions to prevent two canopies out. The size of the main canopy should not be a major factor in choosing a reserve canopy.

For Great Deals on Gear

[Zoter 0]

Interesting....
So you think that your reserve sizing should be independant and separate to your choice of main...
Thats new thinking to me, and I understand the logic....I'm very interested.
How do you think that affects 'what to expect' if you do have a two out....??

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Quote

If someone flys a hotshot postage-stamp sized main but thinks they need a 230 reserve in order to land safely... I find that a bit odd. I'm not going to argue the point, but it seems that either they're being overconfident on their main, or under confident on their reserve.

Maybe they are thinking along the lines of a safe landing under their reserve if they somehow got knocked out and couldn't fly the the canopy?......

***

How about just banged up?

I had my arm 're-located' on a jump once, pulled silver since it was the only handle reachable...the 7 cell F-111 270sqft reserve named~"Dumbo the flyin' Elephant" set me down to a 'feet & one knee' landing, having never even popped the brakes.

I was sold then and am now...270 Reserve..170 Main...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[livenletfly 0]

off the subject for 1 sec. what the hell does "uninsured" mean? why is that part of his companys name? so bill booth doesnt have insurance and adds that to his title? i dont know why but it has always annoyed me. cest la ve

i like the idea of large reserves and small mains. reserves are ther for worst case scenario. why people always asume best case scenario during a mal is beyond me. try landing as reserve with a badly broken arm. you'll be wishing you had the biggest reserve ever made!!!
lukily pd is solving both style and function issues with their new reserves. a 143 packs up smaller than a 113. pretty cool huh? ill let someone else field test them for a couple years then ill buy one,

>

[mr2mk1g 10]

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what the hell does "uninsured" mean? why is that part of his companys name?

Day 1, lesson 1 of law school. There's no point suing someone who has no money.

[kelpdiver 2]

the RWS trademark alone has some pretty good value.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Probably not the sort of money involved in a fatal accident claim or two and the legal costs involved therein.

I would think more than just twice about bringing a complicated fatal accident claim against an uninsured and relatively small company such as RWS. There are ways to protect even valuable assets like names and you can't guarantee that your defendant won't suddenly become a man of straw when it came time to collect.

Besides – I'd hazard a guess that the name Bill Booth is probably worth more in the skydiving industry than RWS. Knowledgeable skydivers will follow the designer more than the brand.

If they were insured however, the claimant can simply chase the deep pockets of the insurance company – they stay around even if RWS disappeared.

[riggerrob 558]

"Uninsured" is lawyerese for "fuck off!"

Reminds me of a case a few years ago where a student broke her ankle and decided to sue Rigging Innovations - who made the harness. A lawyer phoned Sandy Reid (President of Rigging Innovations) to announce the law suit and ask for the name of R.I.'s insurance company.
"We don't have any liability insurance." said Sandy.
A week later the same lawyer phoned again and got the same answer.
R.I. never heard from him again.