YISkyDive 0 #1 June 3, 2005 Hey guys. What is a Hornet? I jumped one today and it was actually considerably fast to my triathlon. I jumped a Hornet 190, and I regurally jump a Triathlon 210. It just has a much faster turn rate, and dive than the triathlon. Flies and opens nice though, but i cannot find any real information on it. Manufacture recommended wing loadings to jump numbers.. things like that. How does this parachute compare to a Sabre/ Sabre 2.. and does it actually fly small? I've heard that it flies a size smaller than it really is. I was fairly suprised by its performance boost. I expected a little slower. Thanks dave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 June 3, 2005 Firstly, "fly small" or "fly big" is bullshit in my opinion. It flies like it flies, wingloading is wingloading and the over all peroformance of a canopy is its performance, end of story. "Flies small" and "flies big" is a product of marketing to try to sell a canopy to a market that it really isn't for. Higher performance or lower performance then the canopy really is. Secondly, you can think of a Hornet of being sort of similar to a sabre2 in that the Hornet is a 9 cell canopy with a tapered trailing edge. If you do a quick search you'll find a couple of pretty indepth threads about the differences between the two canopies. Thirdly, if you jumped a Tri 190 you might find it atleast sort of similarly zippy, except you may find that the Hornet turns a bit sharper, though.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #3 June 3, 2005 Hornets were made by PISA who also made the Tempo reserve and it's a lot like what the Pilot(and sabre2) is today. Hornets were pretty popular with a small group of skydivers because they were dirt cheap and fun to fly. PISA was eventually bought out by Aerodyne(who makes the Pilot) and they handle all the support for the canopy now. They're no longer made however. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #4 June 3, 2005 I wouldn't put the Hornet in the same class as the Pilot or Sabre2. It was marketed as an inexpensive alternative to the orginal Sabre. I have received a lot of customer feedback indicating hard openings. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalslug 31 #5 June 3, 2005 I've also heard from several South African jumpers (where Hornets were quite common) about the hard openings. Those same people have however also said that the early Hornets had sliders that were a bit small. PISA is alleged to have subsequently enlarged the slider on later production Hornets and that jumpers with older Hornets had much better results when their riggers fitted bigger sliders. The 'hard opening' Hornets may just be the older ones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #6 June 3, 2005 QuoteFirstly, "fly small" or "fly big" is bullshit in my opinion And that's all that is...your opinion. In MY opinion, it's perfectly valid way to describe canopy "feel". It's a general perception of the combination of speed, turn rate, and flare power. For example, a Stilletto 97 flies MUCH smaller than a Cobalt 95 or a similarly sized Crossfire. Much twitchier and much less power at the end of the flare. I would never consider jumping a Stilletto 65, but had no problem whatsoever manageing a Cobalt 65. "Feel" is a product of canopy trim, fabric porosity and airfoil efficiency. There are still a lot of Hornets in the air. They are a lot like a Pilot and are built in the exact same factory. Yes, some did/do open fairly hard on occasion, but that's totally fixable with either a larger slider, an H-mod, or a pocket mod on the slider. They are fantastic entry-level/intermediate canopies and can be had for a song on the used market. The canopy (at least in name) was discontinued when Aerodyne ate PISA. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #7 June 3, 2005 QuoteWhat is a Hornet? I jumped one today My only comment would be... um... ask these questions before you jump a canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adamsr 0 #8 June 3, 2005 QuoteI wouldn't put the Hornet in the same class as the Pilot or Sabre2. It was marketed as an inexpensive alternative to the orginal Sabre. I have received a lot of customer feedback indicating hard openings. It may have been advertised as a competitor to the sabre 1, but the point is the hornet is almost identical in shape and performance to the pilot and sabre 2. the hornet is a semi-ellyptical canopy with a tapered tail, just like the sabre 2 and pilot. the sabre 1 however is completely square, so is not comparable. Everyone seems to put PISA down for making low cost copies, when in fact the Hornet was released years BEFORE the sabre 2, with an almost identical shape!! I love my hornet and would have bought another, but i'll just have to go with the pilot or sabre 2 when i get a new rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #9 June 3, 2005 You are forgetting that Stane measures canopies differently from PD. A Cobalt 95 is about the size of a stiletto 107.Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #10 June 3, 2005 Most of this "flies big" or "flies small" bullshit is the result of different manufacturers using different measuring methods. For example: Para-Flite and PISA used the old PIA standard which measured span across the top skin (a few inches aft of the leading edge) and measured chord from the top leading edge straight to the tail. Since the PIA method is not accurate on tiny or tapered canopies, other manufacturers have invented a bewildering array of measuring methods Performance Designs and the new Aerodyne use a method that roughly equals bottom skin area. The only response I got from Atair was "we let the computer figure that out." Just to mess with your head, Icarus switched from the PIA method to PD's method in 2001. Hee! Hee! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #11 June 3, 2005 QuoteYou are forgetting that Stane measures canopies differently from PD. A Cobalt 95 is about the size of a stiletto 107. But what about Icarus? What about Hyper? What about Parachute Lab (FireBolt)? No, the little difference is "measured" size does not account for "feel" in my opinion. An "apples vs. apples" comparison, seeing as how you believe actual size to be an issue in my comparison, would be Stilletto 107 versus Spectre 107. Two incredibly different "feeling" canopies. Larger "feeling" canopies inspire confidence in less experienced pilots and their flight characteristics are far more suited for less agressive jumpers. The Hornet is such a canopy, as are the Sabre2, the Pilot, and the Safire/Safire2. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #12 June 3, 2005 I jump an Alpha 99 and a Viper 105. They are incredible canopies but they do measure bigger than the "same-size-on-the-paper" PD canopies. I actually think Stane's method for measuring canopies is more accurate than what PD and others use. But if you want to compare a Cobalt 95 to a Stiletto you must compare it to a 107 not a 97.Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cameramonkey 0 #13 June 3, 2005 Quote It was marketed as an inexpensive alternative to the orginal Sabre. I have received a lot of customer feedback indicating hard openings. I own one, and can confirm the hard openings. I called my dealer, who send out a "bubble" slider that was slightly larger. I have never been happier. It now opens VERY smoothly, Generally on heading, and stable. I psycho pack it which also seems to help the openings. On occation I get some nasty line twists on deployment, but no matter how bad, the damn thing still insists on sitting patiently waiting for me to kick out of my line twists. If they hadnt been discontinued, I would buy another in a heartbeat. Its a nice docile canopy, that will give nice and snappy response to inputs when you want them, without being excessively unstable in return. just my .02Two wrongs don't make a right, however three lefts DO! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #14 June 3, 2005 QuoteAnd that's all that is...your opinion. In MY opinion, it's perfectly valid way to describe canopy "feel". It's a general perception of the combination of speed, turn rate, and flare power. For example, a Stilletto 97 flies MUCH smaller than a Cobalt 95 Thats because the Cobat is actually a 107 sized canopy. Cobalt was pretty famous for claiming that a canopy "flew bigger"...It was a marketing ploy. The Hornet was a good canopy. Had different colored line attachment points that made learning to pro pack easier. It was a good canopy"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YISkyDive 0 #15 June 3, 2005 Yah, I really like the Hornet actually. I've jumped it like three times, and if it was still avaliable it would be on my to get list. On the comment of asking the questions before- Its in student gear.. So i am sure its ok to jump prior to doing a detective investigation. I knew it was a nine cell, slighty tappered parachute, so i knew i was pretty sure safe to jump it; with the blessing of my S&TA... some of us like to know more though, beyound our feelings.. such as production place, what happened to the company and so on. On the flies big thing.. I had a good friend that jumped it prior to me. He has 450 jumps on a Diablo 170 loaded 1.55. When he jumped the 190 Hornet he was extrememly suprised how much that flew. It was just his personal opinion and gave me a heads up that is a praticularrly fast parachute. Just a jumpers opinion when i told them i was jumping it. Thanks for the input guys! I did some searches and found out a lot on it. Too bad PISA doesnt exsist and have "cheeper" parachutes on the markt.. from what i can tell.. it was well made. -dave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #16 June 3, 2005 QuoteThanks for the input guys! I did some searches and found out a lot on it. Too bad PISA doesnt exsist and have "cheeper" parachutes on the markt.. from what i can tell.. it was well made. Try the Pilot."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #17 June 3, 2005 A lot of the "cheaper" was due to the exchange rate between South Africa and the United States. When the dollar was really strong the canopies were very inexpensive compared to locally made canopies. When the South African dollar gor stronger and the American dollar tanked the price went up by a few hundred dollars. At one point you could import a Hotnet/Heatwave for about $600 plus inport fees. Same canopies a few years later were almost $900+ street price just due to the difference in the dollar. MSRP was about $1500 at that time.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #18 June 3, 2005 A lot of the difference you saw between how the Triathlon you flew and the Hornet you flew is probably because the Hornet is a 9-cell tapered rectangular and the Triathlon is a 7-cell, I believe non-tapered rectangular. When I was near the end of my studenthood, I switched jumped a Triathlon 190 and a Hornet 190 back and forth a lot. The difference between the Hornet and other 9-cell canopies should be smaller than the difference between the Triathlon and the Hornet. That said, I have to agree with some people that the Hornet is not the "best" tapered 9-cell canopy available. And I have to agree that it can be had cheap and it is fun to fly, and therefore can provide good bang for buck. (Unless you pay too much for one. ) The way I would compare a Hornet to a like-size Sabre2 is I call the Hornet "an inferior copy of a Sabre2". Now, I admit that's insulting and technically impossible (as I understand the Hornet came out before the Sabre2) but that's how it seems to behave in my opinion: decent flare but not as good as a Sabre2, and more resistant to flying in front risers than a Sabre2. On the other hand, comparisons like that aren't all that great, because the best front-riser-flying canopy I've flown and the most powerful flaring canopy I've landed are both an original Sabre! -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #19 June 4, 2005 QuoteEveryone seems to put PISA down for making low cost copies, when in fact the Hornet was released years BEFORE the sabre 2, with an almost identical shape!! I wasn't putting PISA down for making low cost canopies. Just offering my opinion based on personal and professional experience. I have had more complaints on Hornets than on the original Sabre. I still sell Hornets on the used gear market. I am not saying it's a BAD canopy. Just not my favorite. As far as the marketing, there were certain dealers that would market the Hornet as a Sabre at half the price. In fact one in particular would actually ship the Hornet when a customer would order a Sabre, but I won't get into that! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #20 June 4, 2005 ARe you ready for a Lotus yet??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerradob 0 #21 June 4, 2005 the canopy that, upon inspection of the center cell, i found a 9 inch long peice of tape sewn onto the seem. they musta finished that one after lunch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #22 June 4, 2005 When they say that Hornets were once cheap they weren't kidding. I got mine for right at $425.00 new from South Africa, with no import fee and about $50.00 more for freight. This was a few years ago. I sure wish I would have bought another one. It openned hard at first but the opennings have since tamed down to a snivel since I started psycho packing. I'd recommend it to anyone....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #23 June 4, 2005 Quotethe canopy that, upon inspection of the center cell, i found a 9 inch long piece of tape sewn onto the seam. they musta finished that one after lunch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Was that on the center bottom skin? I suspect the tape was part of the bridle reinforcement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adamsr 0 #24 June 4, 2005 personally i'd prefer the hornet than a sabre1 and day!! it's a more recent canopy with a better plan-form, and from personal experience the hornet offers better performance, a shallower glide ration, better forward speed, and sharper turns than an equivalently loaded sabre 1. and this shows as well as PD and aerodyne have both followed suit and released canopies with very similar shape and performance to the hornet Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerradob 0 #25 June 5, 2005 no it was just a random peice sewn width wise, the ends just left free about four inches on either side.like they were playing a joke on the quality control guy or something or something Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
