Do You Want A Predictable Landing Pattern ?

[danornan 64]

It seems that there is another death in the landing area and I'm curious if I'm alone in wanting a PREDICTABLE LANDING PATTERN at the Drop Zone?

By predictable pattern, I mean that at every drop zone, I would like the pattern determined and landing direction enforced. I have nothing against hook turns in a designated area.

Deaths are occurring because skydivers are either afraid of landing downwind and turning too close to the ground or they think that they have to land into the wind. Deaths are occurring because some are landing without regard to others who should have the right of way. Deaths are also occurring because some "chase" the windsock.

What do you think? Is there a good reason to NOT want a predictable landing pattern? I think that most airports enforce a predictable landing pattern for airplanes. Why can't skydivers have the same thing?

Dano

[Hvance 0]

Predictable pattern. Everyone knows what the pattern is for the particular load and everyone must follow it. If the winds shift, then the winds shift. Landing downwind seems safer than landing against the pattern and possibly causing a collision.

Also, a separate area for high performance landings seems like a good idea.

I wish Google Maps had an "Avoid Ghetto" routing option.

[billvon 2,396]

Agreed. No problem with a separate swoop lane/pond, but in the main area, everyone has to:

1) land the same direction
2) fly a predictable pattern, at LEAST base with a 90 to final, preferably a downwind leg as well.
3) follow the usual rules of the road (low man has right of way etc.)

[absane 0]

I voted for a predictable pattern AND "first one down sets the pattern. "

Yes, I'm new. However, I have landed enough times to know that the winds can change dramatically, making it unsafe to land a pattern that's been established. It happened on my last jump. But generally the winds don't change that much, so it's rarely an issue. I just ask that we establish that the pattern might change and that everyone be made aware of this. If the pattern might change, be sure everyone on-board knows this.

I always ask what direction we are landing and which pattern we are following. It seems to me that at my DZ, jumpers tend to overlook this. I have seen on multiple occasions jumpers landing in all sorts of directions. Do whatever you want on your load, but when I'm on the load, I want to make sure we don't kill ourselves on landing.

Don't forget to pull!

[Master_Yoda 0]

I'm all for folks determining the proper direction to land at 1000 ft agl by using the wind sock. Set up your downwind, base and final from there. And don't cut people off when they are on final.

If you want to swoop, do it in a designated area away from the main LZ.

[skybytch 259]

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However, I have landed enough times to know that the winds can change dramatically, making it unsafe to land a pattern that's been established.

If you don't like the pre-planned pattern, feel free to land out in whatever direction you'd like. Otherwise, stick to what was planned beforehand for the entire load - for if you don't, the pattern is no longer predictable.

[danornan 64]

A number of the responses tell me that we got serious LZ problems. This confusion is in my opinion part of the blame. Plans cannot change in freefall.

Dano

[billvon 2,396]

>Plans cannot change in freefall.

Sure they can. A common bigway procedure is "land with the tetrahedron." A guy on the ground makes sure the tetrahedron is pointing into the wind, and that it doesn't move during landing. Simple and effective, especially in areas that see a lot of wind direction changes.

[millertime24 8]

You know what? I'm just sick and fucking tired of people flying their parachutes into each other. Can we make it stop? This is the second fatality Ive been close to (the first one I actually witnessed) in less than a month. At this point I'm just tired of seeing/hearing about people die doing the sport that I love.

Muff #5048

[danornan 64]

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>Plans cannot change in freefall.

Sure they can. A common bigway procedure is "land with the tetrahedron." A guy on the ground makes sure the tetrahedron is pointing into the wind, and that it doesn't move during landing. Simple and effective, especially in areas that see a lot of wind direction changes.

That was the plan - It did not change, except for the individual who decides he is above it all and hooks it in without anyone criticizing him!

Dano

[danornan 64]

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You know what? I'm just sick and fucking tired of people flying their parachutes into each other. Can we make it stop? This is the second fatality Ive been close to (the first one I actually witnessed) in less than a month. At this point I'm just tired of seeing/hearing about people die doing the sport that I love.

These answers prove that there is still excepted kayos in the LZ. Too many exceptions and no one is in charge of the landing pattern. It is not enforced.

Dano

[popsjumper 2]

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>Plans cannot change in freefall.

Sure they can. A common bigway procedure is "land with the tetrahedron." A guy on the ground makes sure the tetrahedron is pointing into the wind, and that it doesn't move during landing. Simple and effective, especially in areas that see a lot of wind direction changes.

One would assume that "land with the tetrahedron" was planned before getting on the plane and not a changed plan in freefall.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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I voted for a predictable pattern AND "first one down sets the pattern. "

Yes, I'm new. However, I have landed enough times to know that the winds can change dramatically, making it unsafe to land a pattern that's been established.

What about changes in wind direction makes for unsafe landings?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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I'm all for folks determining the proper direction to land at 1000 ft agl by using the wind sock.

Please reconsider that.

It's a little late in the game for making those types of decisions...especailly with a wide rang of skill levels in the air at the same time.

It's one cause of confusion...not everyone can, or will, make the same determinations by the same altitudes.

If you cannot land safely in any wind direction, please land out away from every one else...the farther out, the better.

I'm saddened that as of my post, 21 people have elected to chase the windsock.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[absane 0]

Quote

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However, I have landed enough times to know that the winds can change dramatically, making it unsafe to land a pattern that's been established.

If you don't like the pre-planned pattern, feel free to land out in whatever direction you'd like. Otherwise, stick to what was planned beforehand for the entire load - for if you don't, the pattern is no longer predictable.

Well as I said, I always make sure I know (and that others know) which way we are all landing and which pattern we are following. On my last jump, though... we all agreed on landing south with a right hand pattern. Everyone ended up landing west with a left hand pattern because the winds picked up and changed direction. Honestly, I would have rather landed the way we were supposed to from the start... but a few instructors (and everyone else) landed west so I followed suit.

Maybe a better option is to say "screw it" and just land near the runway from now on... and just avoid the mess all together.

Don't forget to pull!

[Beachbum 0]

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I'm all for folks determining the proper direction to land at 1000 ft agl by using the wind sock. Set up your downwind, base and final from there. And don't cut people off when they are on final.

Not determining your pattern until 1000 ft. doesn't make sense to me. Most people look at 1000 as being the entry point TO their pattern. If you don't decide on a pattern until then, you aren't likely to be at a good point to enter a standard, predictable pattern.

One thing I don't usually see addressed in these discussions is canopy speed (other than HP, that is). I fly a triathlon, which is a slow canopy at right around 1:1, so am constantly overtaken by danged near anyone else ... LOL! I try to fit into as large a gap as I can in the overall scheme of the pattern on a given jump where I THINK I can best fit in with the least disruption. In spite of that, there are times when I know people can't help but overtake me. What's a slowpoke to do in situations when we can't either dive and get down ahead of most, or float and come down behind most ... ?? (yes, I know part of the answer here is to try to fly a predictable pattern, which I attempt to do). I have to admit, with all the canopy collisions in pattern lately, I DO think a lot more about being overtaken!!

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[ridestrong 1]

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A common bigway procedure is "land with the tetrahedron." A guy on the ground makes sure the tetrahedron is pointing into the wind, and that it doesn't move during landing. Simple and effective, especially in areas that see a lot of wind direction changes.

Agree.

It amazes me that people find it so difficult to plan their landing pattern while looking at the tetrahedron from 2000', everyone should be able to do this students included.

For the record I believe everyone should follow the same landing pattern once it's set, regardless of changes in wind direction...

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[daremrc 0]

I just started with my Coach rating last summer, and I like to remind all of my students of the landing priorities.. Land with the canopy over your head, in an area clear of obstacles, with at least a half-flare and PLF if required. So far they have all been able to recite the pull priorities, but few have recalled those landing priorities without my prompting and review. In the review, I remind them that into the wind, while desirable, is *not* on this list. I see the lack-of-emphasis on canopy skills and control an area that needs to be worked on in regards to our students.

I voted 'predictable patterns' and 'hook turns separate', but I would qualify that statement to <90 / >90 turn separation, I feel a front-riser 90 is at home in a standard landing pattern as long as the right-of-way/clear airspace of others is considered. Also, I am a personal fan of setting the landing direction on the ground and not playing the first-man-down game but I understand at some locations the wind can change 180 with significant speed in either direction without much notice, so I understand the first-man-down rule...

Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

[billvon 2,396]

>It amazes me that people find it so difficult to plan their landing pattern
>while looking at the tetrahedron from 2000', everyone should be able to
>do this students included.

Agreed, with the caveat that you have to expect students to screw up occasionally. We solve this with an alternate student landing area (a lot bigger and very circular.)

>For the record I believe everyone should follow the same landing pattern
>once it's set, regardless of changes in wind direction...

Yep. That's even more important.

[grimmie 173]

There are a couple of major factors that go into preventing collisions and having an effective landing pattern.
DZ's have to educate their customers better on patterns. We have to do more than just show them a photo of the DZ and say, land here, don't land here.
Someone needs to be in the LZ and help enforce the rules and pattern.
Skydivers need to look at the load they are on. What is the exit order, who is at what altitude flying what type of canopy?
Skydivers need to get their heads out of their asses when they fly their parachutes. We all share the same airspace, the 100 jump big canopy guy, the hotshot hanky flyer and the vast array of in between jumpers.
If you are going with the "first jumper down sets the pattern" rule, make sure that person actually knows how to set a pattern. Nothing is worse than being in the saddle on a light and variable day and watching some hotshot zig zag all around at a low altitude and then do a last minute 360 to land. In the meantime 2 or 3 other jumpers are set up low in the wrong direction.
It's a pretty simple and easy thing to sort out.
Look at the winds before you board. Discuss the pattern in the loading area when you are organizing exit order. Look at what types of canopy pilots are on the load, ask who is flying what.
We always dirt dive the jump, right up until the parachutes open. It's time to dirt dive the jump all the way to the ground.

There was a very nasty landing with injury at a recent boogie. It involved not following a plan and a last minute, "Oh Shit! I'm in the wrong direction" low toggle turn.
Canopies can land downwind, crosswind and into the wind on light days just fine.
A sprained ankle or wrist is better than a broken pelvis, neck and femur anyday. Don't make a sudden turn low at 50 feet. Don't get ground fixation. Look out ahead and see if anyone is approaching from about 500ft in. Look around.

And remember..."It's better to walk 100 yards than get flown 100 miles." We don't all have to land in the same spot.

DZO's and managers, enforce the rules.

[jurgencamps 0]

I vote for predictable pattern, but you have missed one option. The landingdirection is indicated on the ground with a T, an arrow, ... The ground crew sets the landingpattern.

[flipper 0]

Also voted for a predictable landing pattern

Making up your mind at 1K is complete bullshit - end of story

Jumpmasters / load organisers reminding the load of what the landing pattern is at loading time is a good idea

[danornan 64]

I started this poll to gain some incite into how skydivers are thinking about their landings and to also create dissussion as to the best way to reduce (not eliminate) the increasing number of landing fatalities; i.e., DUAWP (deaths under a good working parachute) below 1,000 feet.

Just from these comments, that I really do appreciate, it is obvious that there is some confusion and there are different opinions that have their own logic.

I am personally against new rules and regulations and feel that adding more can and sometimes leads to more confusion.

Please continue to respond, leave your ideas and maybe we can come to a consensus and make landing a parachute on a DZ safer and less subject to whims and personal agendas.

DropZone.com can have an influence and some of my ideas have been passed to the USPA Board for review. I sincerely welcome all suggestions and look to eliminate the LZ confusion. It would be great if the landing fatalities could be reduced by eliminating what seems to be landing direction confusion.

Learning to land down wind would go a long way in eliminating the fear and fixation of "having" to land into the wind at all costs.

Dano

[jacketsdb23 45]

Bottom line - there are major landing pattern issues across the country. Its starts with enforcement. In the five years I've been jumping I've seen two people grounded for landing pattern violations. It was at the American Boogie (big ways) and they both landed three fields away (nobody else there) and they were still grounded.

It just seems absurd that nobody else wants to enforce such a basic safety issue.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[Master_Yoda 0]

Well I'd certainly rather land 100 yards from the LZ than land downwind in a 10 or 15 mile an hour breeze... or any breeze for that matter, because of some arbitrary landing pattern.

I understand the idea of establishing a landing pattern. I just don't think you should determine it before you get aboard the plane. You can take note of the direction the wind is coming from, sure, but double check it at 1500 or 1000 ft. Let the low man determine the landing pattern. If the low man is stoned and lands down wind, land out instead. I wouldn't want to come screamin in downwind at 50 mph, or more, unless there is water beneath me!