wmw999 2,318 #51 August 30, 2010 QuoteI understand that parachutes are a lot faster these days but the fundamentals of flying and landing a parachute haven't changed from when I jumped in the late 80's. In fact they haven't changed... EVER!As someone else who quit for a long time and came back, I'll say that the big difference is the range of speeds -- that's part of what makes it a much more complex problem than it used to be. Used to be that everyone drove reasonably sedate canopies; one or two hot dogs might do hook turns, but the majority of the people did straight-in landings with no induced speed, on canopies that would be considered fairly docile now. The canopies around you were probably going roughly the same speed forward and down. But now the speeds are all over the place, and in three dimensions. Imagine the freeway; now imagine it with no minimum speed, and with newbies lane-changing at 30 mph as the sport bike riders are whizzing around at 110. That's closer to where we are now. We want the unfettered freedom, but without the self-imposed controls that make that freedom possible. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jurgencamps 0 #52 August 30, 2010 Quote Have people just become complacent at how to read a wind sock??? It's not that hard!! It is called "Chasing the windsock". Specialy in light windconditions the winddirection can change quite a lot (at our DZ). So you see people landing in all directions and everybody was landing against the wind, because they follow the windsock. It is much more important to land in the same direction than to land against the wind. To follow a predictable landingpattern, the landingdirection also has to be predictable. Hanging at 1000 ft ready to land in a certain direction and some @&à*$ ... chooses to land in an other direction, is not good for the predictable landing pattern. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3274519;search_string=landing%20priority;#3274519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Master_Yoda 0 #53 August 30, 2010 Quote Quote Have people just become complacent at how to read a wind sock??? It's not that hard!! It is called "Chasing the windsock". Specialy in light windconditions the winddirection can change quite a lot (at our DZ). So you see people landing in all directions and everybody was landing against the wind, because they follow the windsock. It is much more important to land in the same direction than to land against the wind. To follow a predictable landingpattern, the landingdirection also has to be predictable. Hanging at 1000 ft ready to land in a certain direction and some @&à*$ ... chooses to land in an other direction, is not good for the predictable landing pattern. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3274519;search_string=landing%20priority;#3274519 I know what "chasing the windsock" is. And I'll agree that once you're on final, the chasing is over. But I'll disagree with you all day long on everyone landing the same direction... all day long, regardless of the wind direction. And I'm familiar with swirling winds. Ever hear of the Raeford wind dragon??? I know it well. The problem with your M.O. is SOME people are not gonna follow others off a cliff. They're gonna land upwind even if you don't. And I'm likely to be one of them. I broke my wrist landing my 220 sq ft F-111 7 cell on a NO WIND day. I call that experience. And my experience tells me landing down wind just because somebody else did is STUPID. I'm gonna take a look at the wind sock at 1000 ft and start my downwind and base. I'll be watching it all the way to about 500 ft and make a decision for my final... which at that point is pretty much made anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jurgencamps 0 #54 August 30, 2010 QuoteI know what "chasing the windsock" is. And I'll agree that once you're on final, the chasing is over. But I'll disagree with you all day long on everyone landing the same direction... all day long, regardless of the wind direction. And I'm familiar with swirling winds. Ever hear of the Raeford wind dragon??? I know it well. The problem with your M.O. is SOME people are not gonna follow others off a cliff. They're gonna land upwind even if you don't. And I'm likely to be one of them. I broke my wrist landing my 220 sq ft F-111 7 cell on a NO WIND day. I call that experience. And my experience tells me landing down wind just because somebody else did is STUPID. I'm gonna take a look at the wind sock at 1000 ft and start my downwind and base. I'll be watching it all the way to about 500 ft and make a decision for my final... which at that point is pretty much made anyway. I never said that the landing direction has to be the same for the whole day. The set landingdirection is still according the general winddirection. It can change from load to load, but once the canopies are open, we do not change the direction till everybody has landed. And I am very sorry if someone cannot land in those conditions (very light winds) downwind. In that case they have made a wrong canopy choice. BTW our landingdirection indicator is an orange arrow, very visible and "updated" before each drop. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Master_Yoda 0 #55 August 30, 2010 QuoteQuoteI understand that parachutes are a lot faster these days but the fundamentals of flying and landing a parachute haven't changed from when I jumped in the late 80's. In fact they haven't changed... EVER!As someone else who quit for a long time and came back, I'll say that the big difference is the range of speeds -- that's part of what makes it a much more complex problem than it used to be. Used to be that everyone drove reasonably sedate canopies; one or two hot dogs might do hook turns, but the majority of the people did straight-in landings with no induced speed, on canopies that would be considered fairly docile now. The canopies around you were probably going roughly the same speed forward and down. Yup. Dead on accurate. QuoteBut now the speeds are all over the place, and in three dimensions. Imagine the freeway; now imagine it with no minimum speed, and with newbies lane-changing at 30 mph as the sport bike riders are whizzing around at 110. That's closer to where we are now. We want the unfettered freedom, but without the self-imposed controls that make that freedom possible. Wendy P. Yup. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Master_Yoda 0 #56 August 30, 2010 Quote Quote I know what "chasing the windsock" is. And I'll agree that once you're on final, the chasing is over. But I'll disagree with you all day long on everyone landing the same direction... all day long, regardless of the wind direction. And I'm familiar with swirling winds. Ever hear of the Raeford wind dragon??? I know it well. The problem with your M.O. is SOME people are not gonna follow others off a cliff. They're gonna land upwind even if you don't. And I'm likely to be one of them. I broke my wrist landing my 220 sq ft F-111 7 cell on a NO WIND day. I call that experience. And my experience tells me landing down wind just because somebody else did is STUPID. I'm gonna take a look at the wind sock at 1000 ft and start my downwind and base. I'll be watching it all the way to about 500 ft and make a decision for my final... which at that point is pretty much made anyway. I never said that the landing direction has to be the same for the whole day. The set landingdirection is still according the general winddirection. It can change from load to load, but once the canopies are open, we do not change the direction till everybody has landed. And I am very sorry if someone cannot land in those conditions (very light winds) downwind. In that case they have made a wrong canopy choice. BTW our landingdirection indicator is an orange arrow, very visible and "updated" before each drop. Since you put it that way... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettski74 0 #57 August 30, 2010 QuoteHave people just become complacent at how to read a wind sock??? It's not that hard!! People still manage to get it wrong, and it's nothing to do with complacency. For one thing, there's parallax error. This can be mitigated with numerous wind direction indicators spread around the landing area, but then you have the problem of light winds that may be in different directions in different parts of a large landing area. Compound this by the fact that the winds may change between the first and last canopies opening and landing. QuoteThe problem with your M.O. is SOME people are not gonna follow others off a cliff. They're gonna land upwind even if you don't. And I'm likely to be one of them. If you can't safely land your canopy downwind in light winds, you have the wrong canopy. Consider a canopy control course or upsizing. As I've said before, I prefer a clear, ground based, human controlled indicator for landing direction in the main landing area, as it seems to be least prone to confusion, but if the rule is first man down, you'd do well to follow the rule. If not, you may be warned, grounded or if you're really unlucky, the victim of a collision on final. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,739 #58 August 30, 2010 >>You're really proposing that pre-A license students do this?? >YES. Gotta disagree there. I'm all for doing it at some point; you learn a lot. You could even make it a requirement for a higher license. But there are some jumpers who are not capable of safely doing CRW for a long time, and requiring them to do so would be a mistake IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 179 #59 August 30, 2010 And CRW training does nothing to prevent a canopy collision. Ask the two CRW Nationals participants that collided in the LZ years ago. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,739 #60 August 30, 2010 >And CRW training does nothing to prevent a canopy collision. I'd suggest that the skills learned doing CRW _can_ help prevent canopy collisions by teaching jumpers they can do more than pull on one toggle or the other to avoid collisions. It's akin to learning to do flat and flare turns to avoid or mitigate bad landings due to low turns. It may not prevent the initial mistake, but gives you more avenues to deal with that mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #61 September 1, 2010 QuoteI chose that as one of my options because that is what determines landing direction at my DZ. You either land "hangars on the left" or "hangars on the right" depending on what the winds are doing at takeoff. Everyone on the load follows the determined pattern regardless of what the winds do while we are in the air. You selected the wrong option for what you are describing. Your description fits the "I am in favor of a predictable landing pattern in the LZ" option because you choose the landing direction at take-off. QuoteOne of my last jumps there the entire load landed downwind because the winds did a 180. Nobody complained and it's a good skill to have. Kudos to you and your group!My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #62 September 1, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteI don't mean "in close proximity" I mean full contact CRW. Two ways are not hard or particularly dangerous. Do some rotations. Land some bi-planes. Do some side-bys and downplanes. I think the experience should be a requirement. You're really proposing that pre-A license students do this?? How many jumps for an A license these days? 50? 100? YES. And don't tell me that it's too dangerous because that's nonsense. Hell, they don't even need CRW canopies to do it. Just a compatible canopy with whoever is instructing them. Hell, they don't even need non-cascading lines or collapsible PCs. Please tell us what DZ you jump so the sane people in here can avoid you. You sir, as ALL your posts indicate, just don't get it.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 179 #63 September 1, 2010 Quote >And CRW training does nothing to prevent a canopy collision. I'd suggest that the skills learned doing CRW _can_ help prevent canopy collisions by teaching jumpers they can do more than pull on one toggle or the other to avoid collisions. It's akin to learning to do flat and flare turns to avoid or mitigate bad landings due to low turns. It may not prevent the initial mistake, but gives you more avenues to deal with that mistake. CRW training doesn't do a thing for the guy that gets hit from above and behind.I get your point, but the only thing that really prevents collisions is getting heads out of asses from the jumpers, to the instructors to the DZO's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danornan 79 #64 September 1, 2010 Quote Quote >And CRW training does nothing to prevent a canopy collision. I'd suggest that the skills learned doing CRW _can_ help prevent canopy collisions by teaching jumpers they can do more than pull on one toggle or the other to avoid collisions. It's akin to learning to do flat and flare turns to avoid or mitigate bad landings due to low turns. It may not prevent the initial mistake, but gives you more avenues to deal with that mistake. CRW training doesn't do a thing for the guy that gets hit from above and behind.I get your point, but the only thing that really prevents collisions is getting heads out of asses from the jumpers, to the instructors to the DZO's. There are lots of things that ultimately prevent low altitude collisions, but I really feel that it starts with the given of a Predictable Landing Direction/Pattern. Many things, on the fly, happen at every DZ when there is what I call KAYOS, which defensible prevent accidents because of reaction. The purpose of this poll was to start conversation and get across the idea of being predictable so that it was not necessary to react, but have everyone act the same way below a certain altitude. Faster canopy present another problem, but that can be addressed if everyone is moving in the same direction. Thank you everyone for your replies. I am hoping for positive change.Dano Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Master_Yoda 0 #65 September 1, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI don't mean "in close proximity" I mean full contact CRW. Two ways are not hard or particularly dangerous. Do some rotations. Land some bi-planes. Do some side-bys and downplanes. I think the experience should be a requirement. You're really proposing that pre-A license students do this?? How many jumps for an A license these days? 50? 100? YES. And don't tell me that it's too dangerous because that's nonsense. Hell, they don't even need CRW canopies to do it. Just a compatible canopy with whoever is instructing them. Hell, they don't even need non-cascading lines or collapsible PCs. Please tell us what DZ you jump so the sane people in here can avoid you. You sir, as ALL your posts indicate, just don't get it. Piss off Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #66 September 2, 2010 Quote [ The purpose of this poll was to start conversation and get across the idea of being predictable so that it was not necessary to react, but have everyone act the same way below a certain altitude. Faster canopy present another problem, but that can be addressed if everyone is moving in the same direction. Thank you everyone for your replies. I am hoping for positive change. For some, the discussion has been beneficial. For others, like the PM I received shows, still just don't get it: --- "You don't know where I jump. Ha fucking Ha!! I know you jump the farm. I'll keep an eye out for you you fucking sack of fucking shit. GO TO HELL!!!! " --- Truer colors were never shown. One of the benefits of internet anonymity, I guess.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 179 #67 September 2, 2010 Must have been one of the 6 jumpers that voted for mayhem in the LZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites