Safest way to set up a tertiary canopy rig?

[FrogNog 1]

Another post asks the "quickest" way to set up a tertiary canopy (i.e. intentional cutaway) rig.

I'm looking for a method that is least likely to kill the jumper.

Options I've heard about include:
* Option A: wear another containerless harness under your regular gear and connect the 3rd canopy to this.
Safety pro: full standard cutaway system.
Safety cons: tertiary cutaway handle could be in a bad place, and the 3-ring system hardware could interfere with the regular rig's 3-ring system hardware.

* Option B version 1: have a regular rig that uses large 3-rings, then connect the tertiary canopy and the regular main to the rig using mini risers. In this version of Option B, the manufacturer alters this rig at the time of creation to have an extra cutaway handle in a place other than the normal location, and an extra set of the regular housings.
Safety pro: separate cutaway handles. (Some would also call this a "con" for training reasons.)
Safety cons: one set of released 3-ring hardware could still interfere with the other 3-ring system. I am also worried that having two risers on the same rings could prevent a cutaway.

* Option B, version 2: use a regular rig with large rings and both main canopies on mini risers, but for the tertiary canopy have the cutaway cables and handles (probably one for each riser) mounted on the risers themselves.
Safety pro: after the tertiary is cut away, there is little or no remaining hardware to interfere with the other 3-ring system. Also, the tertiary cutaway activation is not similar to the regular cutaway handle.
Safety con: in a genuine tertiary emergency cutaway, the non-standard cutaway cable handles / location could be a big problem. And there is still the possibility that two mini risers on each harness ring can prevent a cutaway.

* Option C: get a harness specially built with an extra set of harness rings in a different place. (I believe lower down on the shoulders.)
Safety pro: minimal risk of cutaway hardware from the tertiary canopy interfering with the other cutaway system. No risk of an impossible cutaway due to having two risers in each harness ring. Tertiary cutaway activation would typically be a handle in a different position from normal.
Safety cons: very few; the extra harness ring after tertiary cutaway could cause confusion or interference in case of an emergency requiring the regular cutaway and/or reserve handle.

Some of these ways also have practical cons, such as comfort (two harnesses) or getting a manufacturer to actually make you a harness/container with an extra set of harness rings.

Anyway, I'm looking for comments on the safety of these various ways. Like some other jumpers, I'm keen to try out some different canopies that I have no intention of landing at this point (e.g. rounds) but I don't want to be jumping jury-rigged rigging to do it.

(Someone I trust when it comes to harness rigging suggested both versions of Option B to me, and the first of those is probably what I will end up doing.)

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Pull.

[riggerrob 558]

* Option C: get a harness specially built with an extra set of harness rings in a different place. (I believe lower down on the shoulders.)
Safety pro: minimal risk of cutaway hardware from the tertiary canopy interfering with the other cutaway system. No risk of an impossible cutaway due to having two risers in each harness ring. Tertiary cutaway activation would typically be a handle in a different position from normal.
Safety cons: very few; the extra harness ring after tertiary cutaway could cause confusion or interference in case of an emergency requiring the regular cutaway and/or reserve handle.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

... and use screw-in RW-8-84 rings.

[larsrulz 0]

The cutaway rig at my dropzone is a belly mount that uses a capewell cutaway system. The capewells are put inboard of the shoulder straps and once the first canopy is cutaway, then they don't interfere. The only problem with this was that the first time I saw someone use it he exited belly to earth, which caused the belly mount PC bridle to wrap around his arm! The next time the guy exited correctly and it worked fine. The only negative, in my inexperienced opinion, of the capewell is that it is a multi-step cutaway process, but if you intend to use it for an intentional cutaway, then this shouldn't be a problem.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[faulknerwn 36]

I've got 3 rigs set up like your option C - they all have removable rings, The setup works well and I haven't had any problems with it.
W

[FrogNog 1]

Was that a custom harness from the manufacturer to be able to take the removable rings? Or was it an aftermarket harness change?

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Pull.

[faulknerwn 36]

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Was that a custom harness from the manufacturer to be able to take the removable rings? Or was it an aftermarket harness change?

One was made from scratch, the other 2 were done afterwards, (all done by the manufacturer - Jumpshack. It does shorten the lift web a little bit if you are doing it later, but the 2 rigs I did it with later on both had much longer lift webs than I needed anyway.

W

[kellja2001 0]

Throwing this one out to the wolves.

Deploying the tertiary canopy.

The solution we came up with involved an individual (call him the jumpmaster) holding the d-bag (using handles) in the door of the aircraft whilst the jumper exited - similar to a static line but without the hangup risk.

Identified cons:

1) The aircraft's tail (possibility of the canopy striking the tail if deployed from door-height)?

2) Risers are already "loose" - potential snag-hazard in the aircraft's door.

3) Jumpmaster drops d-bag or "falls out of plane" (you're going to cutaway anyway, right? :p)

How much (if any?) of a problem are these realistically going to be, and what factors could be implemented to mitigate these risks?

Really looking for constructive comments here as I understand the number of intentional cutaway jumps undertaken by DZ.com members is significant.

[theonlyski 3]

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How much (if any?) of a problem are these realistically going to be, and what factors could be implemented to mitigate these risks?

Well, let's see... find an instructor rated static line or IAD, talk to them about deployment issues in the door.

Talk to a rigger and ask for their help, if you're going to be doing it anyways, at least many riggers will usually try to help make it safer.

As far as direct bagging it, it's been done... Maybe do a search on here for 'direct bag'.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[kellja2001 0]

Thanks for the super-fast reply!

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As far as direct bagging it, it's been done... Maybe do a search on here for 'direct bag'.

This is the vocabulary I've been missing! Thanks!

Have done a search, got down to the 2% relevance without really finding anything that helped

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Well, let's see... find an instructor rated static line or IAD, talk to them about deployment issues in the door.

Have been doing this for the last 8 months now - I'm comfortable with the solution we have, except for the "looseness" of the risers and the tail.

The canopy was no-where near the tail on the jump we've done - but it still doesn't feel quite right.

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Talk to a rigger and ask for their help, if you're going to be doing it anyways, at least many riggers will usually try to help make it safer.

Again, way ahead on this one - I've spoken to 4 (admittedly one I simply asked to make a d-bag).

[theonlyski 3]

So use gaffer tape!

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[kellja2001 0]

Gaffer tape is probably a good shout

Just found this:

http://www.crmojo.com/adobepdf/dbag.pdf

Which suggests using additional bungees, one on either side of the d-bag to secure lines right up to the links - also with the added benefit of "guaranteed no twists".

Sounds like a very sensible idea for helping with the loose lines.

EDIT: To clicky

[billvon 2,379]

I've used version 2B for half a dozen intentional cutaways. Cutaway cables mounted on the risers with rubber bands; use them and either hang on to both of them or just throw them away. No harness modifications needed, and the risers seem very unlikely to interfere with each other.

[justme12001 0]

I made a version of option A. I did move the cutaway handle to the chest strap of the second harness, and made sure it was a different color(main cutaway blue, tertiary cutaway red). I also made small container for the tertiary canopy similar to a belly reserve. However my tertiary canopy was the first deployed(by direct bag, static line) This way nobody has to hold it for you, and the bag stays with the plane. Then you have your regular main and then standard EP's in case of second main cutaway.

This set-up does still leave the problem of the risers being loose, but wasn't much of a problem. Just have to be a little extra careful while moving around.

[riggerrob 558]

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I made a version of option A. I did move the cutaway handle to the chest strap of the second harness, and made sure it was a different color(main cutaway blue, tertiary cutaway red). I also made small container for the tertiary canopy similar to a belly reserve. However my tertiary canopy was the first deployed(by direct bag, static line) This way nobody has to hold it for you, and the bag stays with the plane. Then you have your regular main and then standard EP's in case of second main cutaway.

This set-up does still leave the problem of the risers being loose, but wasn't much of a problem. Just have to be a little extra careful while moving around.

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Please post pictures.

[Beatnik 2]

I have a tertiary setup that I built a while ago based off a friends design that doesn't fit into any of your versions. It is a deployable container design that doesn't require you or anyone else to hold onto it. it is mounted on your chest and it still allows you to get at all your regular handles while you are wearing it. The risers are self contained and there are very little exposed parts. I use separable rings so that the risers are not on the same set and then I can also transfer it to any harness and am not limited to one specific rig. The other bonus with this setup is that it is very minimal and doesn't have a lot of extras on a harness. I had some fun with another modified version of it this past weekend.

I am reluctant to pass a lot of additional information on a public forum about this particular setup. As much as a tertiary setup can be great for a lot of things it adds a lot of complexity to a rig and some people don't need any more fuel to get them into trouble. Plus I also don't feel like giving out design information on systems that I have developed for free.

[justme12001 0]

here ya go. static line is in my hand, I know its not the prettiest container. Was just thrown together the night before, as the DZO originally said I could just do a hand held direct bag. Then decided the day before that he didn't like that idea and it needed a container to help control the lines.