wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps

[mgerra28 0]

im not calm im still waiting for my jedi 136. I havent rode a helicopter yet but im sure lifeflight will help me out

http://www.skydivethefarm.com
don't sweat the small stuff, in fact don't sweat at all,, you get smelly!!

ORFUN #2

[billvon 2,393]

I am bumping this back up because it's relevant to an incident at Xenia. TCNelson was seriously injured during a swoop there.

[weegegirl 2]

I hope people can learn something from this. I pray that you pull through this Ted.

[Fast 0]

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I am bumping this back up because it's relevant to an incident at Xenia. TCNelson was seriously injured during a swoop there.

As I was reading this, I was going to do the same. I think that the saddest part of about his incident was that he was told it would happen and banked on his bucket of luck not running out before he was experienced enough to save his own ass.

Time and time again jumpers will continue to make bad decisions and seriously hurt or kill themselves. A total lack of thought and consideration to the efforts of many who have died and many who have gotten lucky and learned from it before them.

Maybe this will be a wakeup call for this guy. I sure hope so. He made a whole whopping 200-300 jumps from when this thread was started in 2004 till now and in that time he decided it was a good idea to downsize from his saber2 @ 1.2 to a Crossfire 2 @ 1.55. A XF2 @ 1.5 can get you in a LOT of trouble really quick, I know I have been jumping one for the last 200+ skydives. I don't think that the canopy he was jumping was unreasonable at his jump numbers if they have a good head on thier shoulders and learn some things along the way.

Time has shown that he lacked the ability to actually learn from the people who were hopefully attempting to mentor him. If he didn't change his attitude from back then, it makes perfect sense that he was bound to hurt himself eventually.

As the saying goes... There are old skydivers, and there are bold skydivers, but not many old and bold skydivers. I am also fond of, if your going to be stupid, you better be tough.

I hope that he does ok with his injuries, heals up, learns from his mistakes, and goes on to be a great skydiver someday. Be safe out there!

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[wmw999 2,120]

One of the morals of this story is that people have really long memories sometimes. What you post, and what you say, are evidence that people will use in judging you.

I'm hoping too that the next few days are good ones.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wildblue 4]

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If he didn't change his attitude from back then, it makes perfect sense that he was bound to hurt himself eventually.

He had changed, please don't judge him now for his attitude 2 years ago. He was listening to people, he just didn't appreciate the way he was approached most of the time (and keep in mind, here on dz.com he'd intentionally go over the top to antagonize people). He stayed with the sabre2 for the last two years, and at the begining of this year went to the XF2. I don't believe what he did was unreasonable. Aggressive, but not ridiculous. He also had a lot of coaching and encouragement from qualified people. He made a mistake, and paid dearly for it. In all my conversations with him, he had no misconceptions about what he was doing - he fully realized the risks he was taking to do something he really wanted to do.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[AggieDave 6]

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What you post, and what you say, are evidence that people will use in judging you.

Especally since someone can change quite a bit in two years. As in this case, in which the thread was started two years ago. I know that personally the last two years have been a journey for me and I had a lot of growing up personally and in the sport.

However, if people want to throw stones, they will.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[wmw999 2,120]

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Especally since someone can change quite a bit in two years.

Exactly.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Fast 0]

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What you post, and what you say, are evidence that people will use in judging you.

Especally since someone can change quite a bit in two years. As in this case, in which the thread was started two years ago. I know that personally the last two years have been a journey for me and I had a lot of growing up personally and in the sport.

However, if people want to throw stones, they will.

That is why I made the statement "If he didn't change" because I know people can and can not change. It all depends on the things they experience. If he had straightened things out and was not acting in a manner that was well beyond his experience then it comes down to the plain and simple fact that even when you do everything close to right you can get hurt. It just seems like an easy correlation between his "I can do anything, I am just as good as ron, don't get in my way, I wont mess up" attitude that he had when he posted in this thread and what happened in his incident.

If he changed and still got hurt, that sucks, but either way, I hope he heals up quick and doens't have lasting injuries, and learns from this.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[tree915 0]

When all this originally posted Ted made my "people to avoid" list. I didn't want to make a friend that was taking risks without trying to manage them. Later I had several long conversations with him about his goals and the way to meet them. He proved to me that the impressions I had were wrong. Ted not only accepted advice but would actively seek it out. He wanted to learn to swoop and had been taking steps to learn to do it right. He was impatient and occasionally thought he could skip a step or two. Not very unusual in this sport. IMO some of the instruction from the experienced swoopers he was soliciting advice from may have been a contributing factor. I believe he was told that he needed to start his swoops with a 270 and dial the starting altitude in rather than start by making smaller turns and building them up. And with nobody there who was more experienced in swooping to say it was wrong....well you know. This antique post completely misrepresents him. He's focused, competitive and goal oriented but he's not irresponsible. Using this thread to point fingers is wrong. I can just picture some smart ass kid saying "I told you so".

[ntacfreefly 0]

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I believe he was told that he needed to start his swoops with a 270 and dial the starting altitude in rather than start by making smaller turns and building them up.

Any idea who in heavens name told him that??

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[tree915 0]

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I believe he was told that he needed to start his swoops with a 270 and dial the starting altitude in rather than start by making smaller turns and building them up.

Any idea who in heavens name told him that??

Yes, and I'm not going there

[Fast 0]

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I believe he was told that he needed to start his swoops with a 270 and dial the starting altitude in rather than start by making smaller turns and building them up.

Any idea who in heavens name told him that??

Yes, and I'm not going there

Your previous post gets at the root of the incident and helps explain how some things can be avoided. I sure hope that something is done about the really bad advice of jumping right into 270s being handed out. It's good to hear that he changed his attitude some.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[chaoskitty 0]

Everyone should try throwing a stone in the mirror first.. see if it cracks.

FYI: Daskal is also no longer with us. His death was not related to skydiving.

[ntacfreefly 0]

Phree has just reported in the incidents forum that Ted is no longer with us either.

BSBD.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[mjosparky 3]

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I transitioned to a Tri-175 (wingloading ~1.37:1) at about 55 jumps and managed to continue my progression without injuring myself.

How much of that was luck and not having anything go wrong? Getting away with something does not make it smart. Never has, never will.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[georgerussia 0]

Well, probably I'll do one hundred more with my Tri 190 loaded at 0.9.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[livendive 8]

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I transitioned to a Tri-175 (wingloading ~1.37:1) at about 55 jumps and managed to continue my progression without injuring myself.

How much of that was luck and not having anything go wrong? Getting away with something does not make it smart. Never has, never will.

There was a fair amount of luck involved. The design of the parachute helped too. I made some substantial mistakes on that canopy and escaped relatively unscathed.

I suppose attitudes have changed since then, mostly for the better.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[pirana 0]

450 jump wonder chiming in just to say this thread has made an impression.

Experienced veterans, keep up the good work.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[wmw999 2,120]

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this thread has made an impression

Good. Because the person who died this week was no longer the arrogant in-your-face poster of two years ago. He was doing most of the things people were telling him to do then.

Being careful isn't always enough. Being good isn't always enough.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[yeyo 1]

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this thread has made an impression.

Yes it has...
I thought I was ready to downsize a little. Ive made most of my jumps (about 30) on a sabre170 (student rented gear). I found a good deal on a Triathlon150 that will be loaded at 1.17. After reading this post I found a friend that will rent me a Tri175 for some jumps...

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[catalin 0]

I downsized from a F111 Manta 290 to a ZP Sabre1 150 when I had like 50 jumps! My exit weight is about 198-200 lbs.

All I had done to that point were accuracy jumps from 1000m and that was my first jump from 4000m. The DZ was new and they didn't have gear rental yet. I wanted to jump really badly and there was a choice between a bigger canopy and the Sabre 150. The instructor gave me the Sabre because it had a Cypres. It all went well, there was no problem landing it. I did 3 jumps on it that day.

Later on when they offered gear rental I jumped a Spectre 190 for like 10 jumps and now I'm jumping a Sabre2 170 - I think I'll stay on it for a while. I think I'm safer jumping the Sabre2 170 than the Spectre 190 because it's more responsive hence more predictable.

The general opinion around here is that in perfect conditions you can jump very small parachutes and be safe, but the problems arise when you have to deal with the unexpected. Find a canopy you're comfortable with. Give the Sabre 150 a try when the weather is good and if you like it have fun with it!
catalin

[pirana 0]

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I downsized from a F111 Manta 290 to a ZP Sabre1 150 when I had like 50 jumps! My exit weight is about 198-200 lbs.

Wow! That is a serious transition. Tempted to call you lucky. I too started on a Manta and now jump a Sabre 150. But in between there are 200 jumps on a Falcon 215, and a few jumps each on 190's and 170's. I can't fathom our instructors allowing me (or anyone) to go from a Manta to a Sabre 150.

How big was the "bigger" canopy? Bigger than the Manta (what would that be?), or just bigger than the Sabre? And they gave you the Sabre just because it had a Cypres?

Strange and dangerous.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Ron 7]

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I think I'm safer jumping the Sabre2 170 than the Spectre 190 because it's more responsive hence more predictable

Bad logic at your experience level

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,393]

>I think I'm safer jumping the Sabre2 170 than the
> Spectre 190 because it's more responsive hence more predictable.

Very bad logic. Parachutes don't kill you because they're not manueverable enough, they kill you because they are too manueverable, and you use that manueverability to slam yourself into the ground.

I know, you wouldn't do something so dumb. But on this forum we have seen many, many instances of people making that exact claim, then going out and breaking (or killing) themselves. The one constant in skydiving is that you WILL make a mistake. How much it hurts you is dependent on how smart you were in choosing your gear, and how you have learned to deal with the consequences of your mistake.