Bluhdow 31 #26 March 17, 2016 diablopilotIf wingsuiters as a group had held themselves to and policed themselves to the same standard we wouldn't be in this position. But they didn't. They acted like children and were treated as such. Some may want to self examine their actions. On the contrary, we chose to self-regulate like adults.Apex BASE #1816 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pms07 3 #27 March 18, 2016 Quote On the contrary, we chose to self-regulate like adults. To be fair, there are some in our community that need help with this. And we can rightfully complain about the specifics and method through which the BSR was enacted. But the fact remains that we are, in part, responsible for the course USPA has taken. Self regulation is great but we have not done as well in this area as we could. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #28 March 18, 2016 I contacted USPA and got a prompt, professional, and polite response from some people rather high up. The BSR when it was in committee had "under canopy", but they were concerned that wingsuiters would start buzzing tandems under freefall, so instead of adding 'or under freefall', they took out 'while under canopy'. The feedback I got was: QuoteThe way the BSR is written now, we believe it implies while in free-fall and under canopy. I have never had an issue prohibiting flyby of tandems. I think it is a stupid idea to buzz them. I think the USPA did a good job of addressing the issue before anything bad happened. I would give the USPA grade of 'A' in safety oversight and a 'C' in the implementation of the BSR. I think they could have done a better job writing the regulation. As others have stated, the process of creating a BSR is flawed. There probably should have been an 'Announced Proposal for a New BSR' and allow the members to comment on the proposal. Instead, we as members had no input and the actual intent of the new BSR has to be discerned by implication. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencebuster 7 #29 March 18, 2016 ^^^ This!Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208 AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bluhdow 31 #30 March 18, 2016 Really? Is there a particular string of incidents which suggest that we've failed in self regulating? Have we failed more than, for example, swoopers? I think it's just heavy-handed regulation of a (relatively) new and unfamiliar discipline to many of the higher ups.Apex BASE #1816 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raftman 12 #31 March 18, 2016 New discipline??! Cool, when does the competition start and how do we score it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3mpire 0 #32 March 18, 2016 raftmanNew discipline??! Cool, when does the competition start and how do we score it? already happening https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8tvKAVp9d4 https://vimeo.com/28709386 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raftman 12 #33 March 18, 2016 Oh I've seen that. Love it, very talented flying. I was referring to the new and unfamiliar discipline of tandem buzzing with wingsuits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Di0 2 #34 March 18, 2016 Bluhdow Have we failed more than, for example, swoopers? I think it's just heavy-handed regulation of a (relatively) new and unfamiliar discipline to many of the higher ups. Yes, in fact swooping has bein heavy handed regulated recently too, see for example last year's pledge by DZOs to provide separate landing areas for swoopers doing big turns and forbidding turns greater than 180 degs when in the pattern with other jumpers.I'm standing on the edge With a vision in my head My body screams release me My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #35 March 19, 2016 Bluhdow Really? Is there a particular string of incidents which suggest that we've failed in self regulating? Have we failed more than, for example, swoopers? I think it's just heavy-handed regulation of a (relatively) new and unfamiliar discipline to many of the higher ups. It is heavy handed to prohibit wing suit fliers from buzzing tandem students??! You have to be kidding me! Setting aside the issue of additional risk for the student what exactly as a wingsuiter entitles you to be an element in a tandem students skydive beyond a high five in the landing area? If you want to play a part in their experience go earn a tandem rating. They are first jump students, not air pylons. USPA is being proactive for once, and they should be. They were far behind the curve with canopy collisions, but the general public doesn't really care much when we kill each other. The FAA and the general public cares a great deal about killing tandem students. This new rule should limit, or at least demonstrate that we tried to prohibit, needless stupid human tricks that has the potential to kill tandem students when it goes wrong."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #36 March 19, 2016 Di0 Yes, in fact swooping has bein heavy handed regulated recently too, see for example last year's pledge by DZOs to provide separate landing areas for swoopers doing big turns and forbidding turns greater than 180 degs when in the pattern with other jumpers. Is it heavy handed in light of the decades worth of canopy collisions and dead jumpers caused by swooping through the landing pattern?"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencebuster 7 #37 March 19, 2016 Brilliant response!Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208 AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bluhdow 31 #38 March 19, 2016 You could apply to "behind the curve" argument to any hypothetical issue that hasn't actually turned out to be a problem in reality. I know, let's make a rule to ban head down jumps. We don't want to get "behind the curve" with respect to the dangers these kinds of jumps create. Especially with newer jumpers who simply aren't qualified to judge their own ability! Again, it's a rule created to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. But we're just running in circles here. We'll have to agree to disagree and I thank you for your input. Honestly.Apex BASE #1816 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #39 March 19, 2016 You are missing the point, by a very wide margin. I would like to think that you aren't representative of the overall wingsuiting community, but if you are, then this further cements the need for a rule like this. The fly bys are occurring, they are unnecessary, and they add risk. None of that can be argued, so the problem clearly exists. They aren't limiting jumps between other skydivers. Your head down comparison is apples to horses. They are restricting conduct involving students. Consider it a limitation on the interaction with students, who are either unknowing participants, or at least uneducated as to the risks. When the USPA starts telling you how you can interact with other wingsuiters let me know and I will be the first to join your complaint. That isn't what is happening here, not at all."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bealio 0 #40 March 19, 2016 DougH The [head down skydives] are occurring, they are unnecessary, and they add risk. Your head down comparison is apples to horses. Seems pretty comparable to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #41 March 19, 2016 You have to be kidding. Do you have any idea how foolish you sound trying to defend your position? Two of the best wing suit flyers in the world fucked, one died and the other the next two week trying to explain why it happened. Not very well I might add. (see attachment) Michael https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF214wDC4L8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLCnGo1wvJQMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thijs 0 #42 March 19, 2016 DougHI would like to think that you aren't representative of the overall wingsuiting community, but if you are, then this further cements the need for a rule like this. He isn't. Most wingsuit flyers never have done a (tandem) flyby nor have any interest in doing so. It's just a few people now that want to make some noise because they feel their 'rights' are being attacked. I am a wingsuit pilot myself, and personally I think this sends a clear message that flybys next to (tandem)students are a no go. Still want to buzz a canopy? No one is stopping you from organizing a jump with another experienced jumper to fly past his canopy or to do some XRW. As far as self regulations goes, that only works when everyone agrees with each other. It only takes one idiot to think he has special privileges to fuck it up for the rest. So please stop blaming 'the wingsuit community' for the actions of a limited amount of individuals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #43 March 19, 2016 New? I did my first wingsuit jump 15 years ago.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bealio 0 #44 March 20, 2016 mjosparkyTwo of the best wing suit flyers in the world You're kidding right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #45 March 20, 2016 QuoteAgain, it's a rule created to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. I guess it depends on what you define the problem to be. If the problem is there is unregulated activity causing additional risk to the cash cow of skydiving, this rule is solving the problem. The USPA took the easiest course and banned all close flybys. They could have regulated the wingsuiter has 500 wingsuit jumps and the TI 500 tandems, or something like that, but they didn't. They could have made it waiverable by an S&TA, but it probably isn't. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 623 #46 March 20, 2016 If you think USPA gets uppity about endangering their (tandem) cash cow ..... try injuring a cow in India! Boo! Hiss! Crowds pursuing you with pitch forks !!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #47 March 20, 2016 Bealio***Two of the best wing suit flyers in the world You're kidding right? About what?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpsalot-2 3 #48 March 20, 2016 diablopilotNew? I did my first wingsuit jump 15 years ago. Was it that orange birdman suit in Davis CA ?Life is short ... jump often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #49 March 21, 2016 Bealio***Two of the best wing suit flyers in the world You're kidding right? I never “kid” about people doing stupid shit and other people dying because of it. MichaelMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #50 March 21, 2016 Bluhdow***If wingsuiters as a group had held themselves to and policed themselves to the same standard we wouldn't be in this position. But they didn't. They acted like children and were treated as such. Some may want to self examine their actions. On the contrary, we chose to self-regulate like adults. If you were doing this effectively, there wouldn't be a BSR out. QED. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
