Safe to buy a used reserve?

[boozy 0]

I am in the market for a new PD reserve (must be PD), and I have a few quesions regarding them. First, is it safe to buy a used reserve? I see alot for sale in the classifieds, but they are all manufactured prior to 2000. Should I be worried about the age of the reserve? Second, how much smaller should the reserve be (if any) than my main? I am currently flying a spectre 170 loaded at 1, but I intend to downsize to a 150 later in the summer. I am flying a tempo 170 reserve, which I hear nothing but bad things about (hence the company switch). I was thinking about a PD 143 reserve, but I have my doubts. Any help is greatly appreciated :)

[AggieDave 6]

I've never in my life heard someone say after a reserve ride "gee, I wish I had a smaller reserve..." There's nothing that says you have to have the same size reserve as your main or smaller. Infact many people (including me) have a larger reserve then their main.

I'll leave the other questions for someone with a rigger's ticket.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[boozy 0]

My reasoning behind a smaller reserve is stupid, I want the rig to be as small as possible, and be as light as possible. I see the reserve as something that will save my life at the expense of performance/size. Any input on this would help me greatly as I love learning :)

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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My reasoning behind a smaller reserve is stupid, I want the rig to be as small as possible, and be as light as possible. I see the reserve as something that will save my life at the expense of performance/size. Any input on this would help me greatly as I love learning :)

People are going to ward you against that... but, in reality, we all feel the same way otherwise we'd all have 190 reserves.

You should AT LEAST feel comfortable flying the reserve. If you haven't flown a main that size, you probably should not buy a reserve that size. I am being a hypocrite here, tho, so i'll shut up now. But, i'll close with saying you can call PD for a demo 143. Fly it, see what you think.

Oh, and I bought my first reserve used (pd126) and it worked fine for me. I sold it with my old rig not long back. I see no problems buying a used reserve, but DO have it inspected.

-A

[AggieDave 6]

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My reasoning behind a smaller reserve is stupid, I want the rig to be as small as possible, and be as light as possible.

You're right, that is NOT a good reason. Lets say you get the next size down reserve, you'll save about 1/3 of a pound and you won't have that much difference in the rig size. Now if you got a PDr-99 you'd have a small rig and you'd save around 1 1/2 lbs. Not that big of a difference in weight really.

You should see the reserve as a canopy that you'll be under LOW and you may not have a great pic for a landing area. You want something you'll be able to fly into someone's postage stamp backyard and miss the swingset (slightly exagerated, but you get the point). Also, how often do you fly the reserve? How current on flying that canopy do you think you'll be?



I want you to do me a BIG favor. I really want you to talk to some of the instructors and the S&TA at your DZ (as well as your rigger) about what reserve size is appropiate for you.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[boozy 0]

Um, I have a hard time getting info out of instructors at my DZ. They always seem annoyed by any questions I have, and are far too busy with tandems to sit down and talk to me. That is why I am posting here, to get a wide pool of info, not just what a few think here.

[AggieDave 6]

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They always seem annoyed by any questions I have, and are far too busy with tandems to sit down and talk to me.

Wow, I'm sorry to hear that.

Well then, in addition to the information you get here, please also call up PD and talk to someone like Isiah about possible choices.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[boozy 0]

How about the date of manufacture? Can I be sure that buying a rig from 199x is safe? Surely I will have it inspected before jumping it, it just scares me a little that it's so old.

[DBCOOPER 1]

Get it inspected by the Mfg.Make it a condition of completing the transaction.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[cvfd1399 0]

I fly a Spectre 230 and a Smart 250 reserve I dont see the need in having a smaller reserve in a bad situation.

[koz2000 1]

As far as the age, there's nothing wrong with a 1999. PIA industry has said the 20yrs is the life of a reserve. Check how many rides are on the reserve, number of packjobs, talk to the rigger who has packed it. Like another post said, have it inspected at the Mfg.

______________________________________________
- Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes -

[craichead 0]

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My reasoning behind a smaller reserve is stupid, I want the rig to be as small as possible, and be as light as possible. I see the reserve as something that will save my life at the expense of performance/size. Any input on this would help me greatly as I love learning :)

Well, at least you know it's stupid reasoning...have you read this article, yet?

Do skydivers care about safety? by Bill Booth

_Pm

__
"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

I am in the market for a new PD reserve (must be PD), and I have a few quesions regarding them. First, is it safe to buy a used reserve? I see alot for sale in the classifieds, but they are all manufactured prior to 2000. Should I be worried about the age of the reserve? Second, how much smaller should the reserve be (if any) than my main? I am currently flying a spectre 170 loaded at 1, but I intend to downsize to a 150 later in the summer. I am flying a tempo 170 reserve, which I hear nothing but bad things about (hence the company switch). I was thinking about a PD 143 reserve, but I have my doubts. Any help is greatly appreciated :)

Buying a used reserve is usually pretty safe, assuming the canopy passes the inspection of a qualified rigger. Reserves are supposed to be accompanied by their packing data card, on which the canopies packing and rigging records are kept.
Reserves receive most of their wear from pack jobs, not jumps. PD Reserves also have an area on the Warning Label where the rigger annotates each pack job. Don't be surprised if the packing data card has more pack jobs annotated than the canopy does.

Reserves tend to get packed six or less times a year, and jumped far less. When they are jumped, the openings are often subterminal. Over a twenty year span that is less than 120 pack jobs, and even fewer jumps. This is well within the normal life expectancy of a canopy constructed of low porosity material.

As far as reserve sizes are concerned, I would advise to prepare for the worst case scenario. AggieDave was right (almost):

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[CAPS ARE MY EDITS]
You should see the reserve as a canopy that you'll be under low and you may not have a great pic for a landing area. You want something you'll be able to fly into someone's postage stamp backyard and miss the swingset, THE KIDS PLAYING NEARBY, AND THE DOG THAT IS REALLY PISSED OFF AND SUDDENLY BARKING LOUDLY AND RUNNING RIGHT FOR YOU BECAUSE YOU JUST SCARED THE SHIT OUT OF IT. ON TOP OF ALL THAT, YOU'RE KIND OF GROGGY BECAUSE YOU GOT KNOCKED UNCONCIOUS DURING THE FUNNELED EXIT, AND DIDN'T EVEN WAKE UP UNTIL YOUR AAD FIRED AND YOU HAD AN UNSTABLE TERMINAL RESERVE OPENING THAT LEFT YOUR BODY BRUISED AND VERY SORE. WATCH OUT FOR THE FENCE THAT'S COMING AT YOU FAST. (slightly exagerated, BUT NOT BY AS MUCH AS YOU MIGHT THINK, ESPECIALLY IF YOU DON'T MAKE WISE DECISIONS AND MAINTAIN A HEALTHY RESPECT FOR THE SPORT, but you get the point).

A rectangular seven cell canopy made from low porosity fabric, such as a PD reserve, is not designed to fly as efficiently as your main. It is designed to open and fly reliably in a variety of scenarios, and it does that well, but it is not going to fly or land like your main. I highly recommend demoing the model and size you are going to jump. I also recommend choosing a reserve that is at least as large as your main.

I would not recommend downsizing your main until you have several hundred jumps on your current main canopy, especially if your drop zone's landing field elevation is much higher than about 1000 ft. I know this is not the current trend you see. People downsize much sooner than that, usually. If you're in the sport long enough, you'll start to see a trend which jumpers make orthopedic mistakes with their landings, the ones that bought zippy canopies early, or the ones that learned to swoop on a boat that normally takes two counties to turn 180 degrees.
Swooping is about how you fly, not what you fly. Learn to fly your current canopy to its maximum potential. But be careful as you do so; a 1:1 wingloading can kill you just as dead as a 2:1 wingloading can if you make the wrong choices close to the ground. It is just a little less likely to is all. Pick a reserve that is large enough that you can land it safely when things aren't going well, because that is when you will have to fly it.

For Great Deals on Gear

[mjosparky 3]

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PIA industry has said the 20yrs is the life of a reserve.

Where did they say this?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[boozy 0]

Great post my friend. I honestly think I just might stick with my tempo 170 reserve for a while..although I do not trust it. The reason I am looking to downsize my main to a 150 is, it is the smallest size main my container (G4 M4) can handle. There is something about that that draws me in, and I understand that is not a good idea..hell my 170 will let me know sometimes downwind or crosswind that it is still a performance canopy and will toss my ass if the winds are right. My DZ is at an elevation of just over 5,000 ft. in elevation. So the experience is a little more intense.

[koz2000 1]

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PIA industry has said the 20yrs is the life of a reserve.

Where did they say this?

Sparky

Ok let me rephrase that, most manufacturers and riggers that make up the PIA and tend to believe that 20 yrs is a good "cutoff" date but there is nothing in stone.

PIA Article Look at the 8th- 10th paragraphs.

Do a search about old resreves. Some very respected riggers also conform to this.

d

______________________________________________
- Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes -

[mjosparky 3]

Thank you.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[rmsmith 1]

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My reasoning behind a smaller reserve is stupid, I want the rig to be as small as possible, and be as light as possible.

How does a neophyte develop such ideas so early in the sport?

[chuckbrown 0]

Buying a used reserve shouldn't be a problem. The issue isn't necessarily the date of manufacture, instead its the number of times its been flown. If you're in the market for a used reserve, have it inspected by your rigger. If it's airworthy, buy it.

BTW, I recently bought a used PD176R for $375. My rigger (Handsome Dave DeWolf) gave it a two-thumbs up. If he had no problem with the canopy, I certainly didn't.

You shouldn't jump a reserve size that you've never flown before, though. You're begging for a busted ankle(s).

[SCR10480 0]

"I just might stick with my tempo 170 reserve for a while..although I do not trust it"
__________________________________________________

Then by all means replace it. You have asked some very good questions, and have gotten some very good answers...but, if you DO NOT trust your reserve you are already in danger before you even get on the plane.

PD makes great stuff...contact Kolla.

[ChrisL 2]

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Great post my friend. I honestly think I just might stick with my tempo 170 reserve for a while..although I do not trust it. The reason I am looking to downsize my main to a 150 is, it is the smallest size main my container (G4 M4) can handle. There is something about that that draws me in, and I understand that is not a good idea..hell my 170 will let me know sometimes downwind or crosswind that it is still a performance canopy and will toss my ass if the winds are right. My DZ is at an elevation of just over 5,000 ft. in elevation. So the experience is a little more intense.

You have stated a couple times already in this thread that your thoughts about downsizing are "stupid" and "not a good idea" [your own words]

Very experienced skydivers (not me) are saying the same thing to you, a little more tactfully, but nonetheless the meaning is the same.

Listen to them. Listen to what your own mind is telling you.

Dont become a statistic.

__

My mighty steed

[councilman24 36]

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Quote

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PIA industry has said the 20yrs is the life of a reserve.

Where did they say this?

Sparky

Ok let me rephrase that, most manufacturers and riggers that make up the PIA and tend to believe that 20 yrs is a good "cutoff" date but there is nothing in stone.

PIA Article Look at the 8th- 10th paragraphs.

Do a search about old resreves. Some very respected riggers also conform to this.

d

Even this statement (my bold) isn't quite right. This is NOT a PIA article. It's an independent article written by Allen as an independent business man and does not represent the views of PIA. As inferred above, PIA as an organization has NO position on the matter. And, very few riggers are independent members of PIA (I'm one, and chair of the rigging committee). Some manufacturers have imposed life limits on TSO'd equipment in civilian use. Security is one and PD is another (as a manufacturers inspection). But, in the absence of regulatory or manufacturer requirements many riggers have their own "comfort" level. Allen Silver has his (see article above). Allen's a friend, I respect Allen and have learned a lot from him but also realize that Allen rigs almost exclusively for pilots. Some riggers time limits are shorter, 15 years, some are longer, 25 years, and some riggers will pack almost anything. I just refused to do 1950's military seat harnesses with 1960's canopies that were being packed routinely by another rigger. Would these have held together? Probably but I wasn't going to put my name on them. I actually use the 20 years as a guideline also, with individual circumstance taken into accout.

Many riggers would like a life limit. It would eliminate the uncertainty of when to refuse to pack something due to age and give us something to tell the customers as an absolute. But, each time the PIA Rigging Committee discusses this, we recognize that individual circumstances make arbitrary limits difficult to justify. A reserve that's set on the shelf in it's original bag for 10 years isn't as close to retirement as one that has been packed every 120 days for 10 years and jumped in the desert sand. This is somewhat a culture thing also. I know many countries other than the U.S. have life limits essentially as law. And those cultures accept that level of regulation. In the U.S. when PIA did propose a life limit several years ago there was such a uproar that we still haven't stopped smarting from that idea.

Prior to about now, most of the sport reserves were retired for changes in design. Most people have upgraded from the first two generations of square reserves, Safety Flyer and Safety Star, and original Swift, Cirrus, and Orion reserves. But, I have many customers with early 1990's Glide path reserves and super raven reserves that are getting tired just from packing. Should these go 20 years? I'm getting suspicious of some now. And I had a circa 1990 Laser square reserve fail tensile testing. Also, when do we question the harnesses that we have no way of testing? I jumped one of the prototype SST's back in the early 80's and that thing was beat to hell and faded to pink from red. I'd never jump it now. But it held together. When do we say 'I don't know' about a 15 year old harness? I have several customers I'm priming with suggestions that maybe they should think about something newer.

As to a used reserve. We ALL jump used reserves after the first jump. There is no reason not to buy a reserve from the late 90's or earlier that is of modern design. That includes Tempo's, Super Ravens, Glide Path (now Flight Concepts), Strong, as well as popular PD reserves. You and your rigger should review the data cards and determine or ask if it's been deployed and how many times.

And your reserve should be sized not for the maximum load limits under the TSO but for the maximum weight limits based on performance. You should not pick it on the size of main your going to have or on the size of the harness that is a "good deal" at the DZ. I've convinced a number of customers to not pick their container size first, but rather their reserve first.


Chairman, PIA Rigging Committee

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[GravityGirl 0]

IMHO, I would set you up with a PD 160 reserve. It pairs well with both the 170 main and the 150 main. I am not aware of your exit weight, so check the manufacturers recommendations for your exit weight and experience level.

Flying a 170 main, then having a reserve ride on a 143 reserve would prove to be very stressfull.

I have held several reserve canopy seminars and events, where all experience levels got to jump their own size reserve. Maybe one size larger and in some cases one size smaller.

The end results of these seminars greatly influence my recommendations to my customers. I have had customers upsize as a result of flying what they currently had in their container.

Feel free to PM me if you have any direct questions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Amazon 7]

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There is something about that that draws me in, and I understand that is not a good idea..hell my 170 will let me know sometimes downwind or crosswind that it is still a performance canopy and will toss my ass if the winds are right. My DZ is at an elevation of just over 5,000 ft. in elevation. So the experience is a little more intense.

I think you may want to get ahold of a demo reserve from PD and actually fly one. They have them to demo for a reason, and at 5000 ft altitude I think KNOWING what your reserve will do, before you are trying to land one after a cutaway where the adrenaline has you all amped up.... JUST might save you some day.

[nicknitro71 0]

There is nothing wrong with Tempos. You are loading yours 1.0. Keep it.

Memento Audere Semper

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