JohnMitchell 14 #51 March 29, 2010 Quote I have only tried inverted spins in an airplane certified for aerobatics: a Pitts S-2 with Mike Mangold in the back seat. Did Mike ever tell you about when he punched out of his F-4 Phantom? It's a good story, and he got neck rubs from the ladies for years by telling it at the right time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyMarko 1 #52 March 29, 2010 Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I thought jump pilots had to wear emergency rigs....or am I horribly wrong? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #53 March 29, 2010 >Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I thought jump pilots had to wear >emergency rigs....or am I horribly wrong? There's no one specific rule. Some aircraft require the pilot to wear a parachute if the door is open in flight; other aircraft are modified via an official process (the form-337 process) and the conditions of the modification require the pilot to wear a parachute. But there's no FAR that says "the pilot of a jump ship shall always wear a parachute." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyMarko 1 #54 March 29, 2010 Why thank you.... And that video is nucking futs!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #55 March 29, 2010 Quote In an otter, there would be no hope for a bailout. You think maybe they could get out of the door next to the pilot?Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #56 March 29, 2010 Quote Quote In an otter, there would be no hope for a bailout. You think maybe they could get out of the door next to the pilot? Into the prop? Walking into an Otter prop has been tried before, it didn't work out.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #57 March 29, 2010 Quote Quote Quote In an otter, there would be no hope for a bailout. You think maybe they could get out of the door next to the pilot? Into the prop? Walking into an Otter prop has been tried before, it didn't work out. Sorry dave i thought they had controls up by the pilot.....I thought the pilot might even know how to turn them spinning things off alsoNothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #58 March 29, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote In an otter, there would be no hope for a bailout. You think maybe they could get out of the door next to the pilot? Into the prop? Walking into an Otter prop has been tried before, it didn't work out. Sorry dave i thought they had controls up by the pilot.....I thought the pilot might even know how to turn them spinning things off also Sure, but the props don't stop, even when shut down. Basically the point is that the pilots I know would rather attempt to keep flying the plane in something like an Twotter then feather the prop and hope they're not seriously hurt when they hit it. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #59 March 29, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote In an otter, there would be no hope for a bailout. You think maybe they could get out of the door next to the pilot? Into the prop? Walking into an Otter prop has been tried before, it didn't work out. Sorry dave i thought they had controls up by the pilot.....I thought the pilot might even know how to turn them spinning things off also Sure, but the props don't stop, even when shut down. Basically the point is that the pilots I know would rather attempt to keep flying the plane in something like an Twotter then feather the prop and hope they're not seriously hurt when they hit it. I know but did you miss what i was orig. replied to? If that was an otter in that video and the pilot had a rig....you wanna bet that pilot would attempt to get out?Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halfpastniner 0 #60 March 29, 2010 No, he probably would have tried harder to get the airplane right side up again.BASE 1384 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,382 #61 March 29, 2010 Quote Basically the point is that the pilots I know would rather attempt to keep flying the plane in something like an Twotter then feather the prop and hope they're not seriously hurt when they hit it. It is really time for someone to go dig up Mike Mullins' account of the time someone mangled the tail of his KingAir. "There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #62 March 29, 2010 Sorry, but there is no way to stop the "spiny things" on PT-6A turbo-prop engines from spinning. Since they are free-turbines - with no propeller brakes - the "spiny things" will probably continue to spin as long as there is wind. IOW the propeller is spun by a separate free turbine/power turbine that is not connected to the engine core. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #63 March 29, 2010 Quote Sorry, but there is no way to stop the "spiny things" on PT-6A turbo-prop engines from spinning. Since they are free-turbines - with no propeller brakes - the "spiny things" will probably continue to spin as long as there is wind. IOW the propeller is spun by a separate free turbine/power turbine that is not connected to the engine core. Well that may be how they are supposed to be but i have personally been in a caravan that the PT-6a quit on and the propeller stood dead still. So worst case is if i was a pilot in a situation like in that video and the prop was slightly spinning i will take my chances Best of luck to the rest of you that want to come up with every possible problem that could happen due to the tide's in the oceanNothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sletzer 3 #64 March 29, 2010 The pilot can get out of a mid-sized plane if they have to... but even with a rig on no one said it was easy. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3592741;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread In that thread is a link to this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCyt-sIMym0 go to 5:35 and the pilot is talking about why he was wearing a rig. He certainly wouldn't have surived if he hadn't had it on pre-incident.I will be kissing hands and shaking babies all afternoon. Thanks for all your support! *bows* SCS #8251 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akjmpplt 0 #65 March 29, 2010 Quote In this airplane, the pilot is sitting very close to the door. In an otter, there would be no hope for a bailout. BS. The pilot of a B-17, B-24 or B-29 is even farther from an exit...lot's of them managed to bail out.SmugMug Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhanold 0 #66 March 30, 2010 QuoteSorry, but there is no way to stop the "spiny things" on PT-6A turbo-prop engines from spinning. Since they are free-turbines - with no propeller brakes - the "spiny things" will probably continue to spin as long as there is wind. IOW the propeller is spun by a separate free turbine/power turbine that is not connected to the engine core. I am not so sure... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yyFb-a2pl4 At 3:40 there is video of an engine out emergency of a twin otter and the prop is dead still. Take a look. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,382 #67 March 30, 2010 QuoteQuote In this airplane, the pilot is sitting very close to the door. In an otter, there would be no hope for a bailout. BS. The pilot of a B-17, B-24 or B-29 is even farther from an exit...lot's of them managed to bail out. And on there bombing runs, they were generally about 18,000', giving a lot more time. Also add in the fact the WWII loss rate was so high, that everyone was expecting to face an emergency situation."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #68 March 30, 2010 QuoteAt 3:40 there is video of an engine out emergency of a twin otter and the prop is dead still. Take a look. There is a failure that will cause the prop to stop turning, but there are far more options that allow the prop to windmill in the event of an engine failure (on a PT-6). The reason for that comment was in reagrds to an Otter pilot bailing out of the cockpit door during an in-flight emergancy. If the pilot is 'lucky' enough to have just the right type of failure on either engine, then one of the cockpit doors would be an option. Any other failure would have the props spinning and both of those doors looking like a bad idea. In all reality, it would take far more than an engine failure, even both engines failing, before an Otter pilot would abandon ship. It would take an airframe failure of some sort to get the pilot into freefall. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alberto1980 0 #69 March 30, 2010 I think the only way to get out of a back spin without thinking too much about it, is to give 'in spin' ailerons and getting the spin steeper and steeper until the aircraft gets out naturally. From the video though the spin seems pretty steep, definetly not a flat one. that is also why they experienced hi g forces. there's another video like this with a Britten Norman Islander stalling and then going into a spin while on jump run. It's on youtube somewhere, but they recover the aircraft after a few turns . If it was a certified aircraft, it would have gone through a stall characteristics certification, which includes spin demonstration unless an artificial stall is set with a stick pusher or something, but I do not think this is the case. That vertical tail is tiny, I am not surprised this happened. everybody seemed to walk away and for the aircraft who cares Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akjmpplt 0 #70 March 30, 2010 Aileron use in a spin usually makes things much worse. Normal spin recovery is with rudder to stop the yaw and elevator to reduce the angle of attack.SmugMug Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #71 March 30, 2010 Isuspect that your Caravan suffered an oil leak and seized the reduction gear box. That is one of the few PT-6 failures that would prevent the propeller from turning. Remember that fuel starvation is the most popular cause for engine failures in most airplanes. Just recently, a PAC 750 pilot ran the fuel tanks dry in Virginia. And a couple of years ago, we suffered fuel surges when a fuel pump failed in our King Air. I suffered a dis-located shoulder when we force-landed in a farmer's field. Fuel starvation allows the propeller to continue spinning freely, making it dangerous for a pilot to bail-out of a Twin Otter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LongWayToFall 0 #72 March 30, 2010 Yes I believe you are right about the cessnas, I always mix up the types. I jump in the San Francisco bay, and have gone to all of the drop zones in the area. It is possible that some of the pilots may not have worn a rig, but I never saw it. I am pretty sure I would have made a mental note, because people in the airplane without rigs scare me. I am hardly ever last out though, so I don't usually get a look at the pilot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alberto1980 0 #73 March 31, 2010 I do not suggest you trying that, but giving in spin ailerons make the spin steeper and steeper until the aircraft gets out of the spin. personally tried on a pc21. I am not sure it works on a twin like an Otter though.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akjmpplt 0 #74 March 31, 2010 Does the prop stop on a PT-6 when feathered?SmugMug Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #75 March 31, 2010 QuoteQuote In this airplane, the pilot is sitting very close to the door. In an otter, there would be no hope for a bailout. BS. The pilot of a B-17, B-24 or B-29 is even farther from an exit...lot's of them managed to bail out. And lots didn't.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
