Need some info from pilots ...

[KermieCorleone 0]

I am trying to figure out if I have the time and funds needed to get a PPL. I was wondering since there are a few pilots on this forum, someone on here would know the best online aviation forum, that I can go to research time, cost, local schools, license progression etc.

Cheers

- Neil

Never make assumptions! That harmless rectangle could be two triangles having sex ...

[thomas_crowe 0]

I don't know of any good forums other than AOPA; but if I had to offer one piece of advice towards getting your PPL ( as well as your commercial and instrument ratings) it would be to get your own plane to do the training in!!! Most used planes hold their value very well, and when your done with you training you can usually get 90% of purchase price back out of the plane. So if you have ~25-40k that you can invest or even finance, get your own plane.
You will complete your training faster as you don't have to wait as long in between flights or compete with other students for the aircraft. You will also be far more familiar with the aircraft.
It will be far cheaper in that you will get back most of what you pay in aircraft payments (including tie-downs and insurance). (don't forget to still pay rental to yourself on the airplane to cover maintenance).

The plane that I currently own I bought specifically to do my instrument rating in, and I have never regretted it!

Good Luck;
Tom

Thomas Crowe, NRP
Nationally Registered Paramedic
Red Hat Linux Geek

[100LL 0]

I got my PPL about 8 years go, but dont fly anymore. Hope i can help....

Funds would be your biggest issue. At a minimum you need to have logged 40 hours of flight time, and i think the going rate for the aircraft wet ( with fuel) and instructor is around 150 or so an hour.

your time is another matter. Some FBO's will have accelerated courses where they get you from nothing to PPL in a matter of a week or two. Otherwise flying only on the weekends it could take up to a year depending on how the weather is in your area.

Hope this helps

[jrjny 0]

coming from someone half way through their PPL 6-7 months into it, just take a 2 week vacation somewhere and bang it out.

[jumpwally 0]

and you'll need to budget around 10k these days....

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[Heatmiser 0]

Several schools on municipal airports around Oklahoma City are getting it done for between 5 and 6 grand.

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama

[airdvr 197]

Surprised to hear 'buy your own plane'. I'd liken that to buying your own rig for your first jump.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[BillyVance 34]

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Surprised to hear 'buy your own plane'. I'd liken that to buying your own rig for your first jump.

I have a friend who bought a C-172 right after getting his license, and then leased it to the flight school. That alone paid for the plane.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[lowapproach 0]

To add to the other advice... You are going to find a wide array of training aircraft available at the schools you check out. It might be tempting to learn on the glass panel equipped (technically advanced aircraft) due to all the bells and whistles, but I would learn on the "old fashioned" steam gauge round dials. The transition from round to glass is pretty easy, but I have spoken to people who learned on glass and they have difficulty being as proficient on round. Developing a good instrument scan with either is the most important and will make additional training (instrument, commercial, etc) that you do later that much easier.

If you have the funds to pick up a good reliable training aircraft it is not a bad thing to do. Keep in mind your weight and the weight of your future instructor. Smaller aircraft have limited useful loads and if you are a bigger person you will be severely limited either by the size of your instructor or the amount of fuel you can carry. A Cessna 152 / 172, Piper Archer, or similar aircraft hold their value extremely well as thomas_crowe mentioned because they are in such high demand. If that is a route you are considering, and you have the funds, start your training first and fly several types or planes (high wing, low wing, etc) to see (1) if you are really interested in flying or it is a passing idea and (2) which type of plane best suits you and your needs. As with skydiving, find an instructor you are compatible with and seek their advice. Make sure you can find an instructor who will train in your airplane and consult with the insurance provider.

There are two types of training you can receive, and both refer to the Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs) parts: Part 61 and Part 141. Part 141 is a very structured course including a syllabus that is pretty much followed in order. Part 61 gives you all the same training but the order can be changed around to best suit you. There are pros and cons to each one that an instructor can walk you through.

All in all, flying is a great skill to have and is damn fun. Good luck.

[quade 3]

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Surprised to hear 'buy your own plane'. I'd liken that to buying your own rig for your first jump.

It was a viable strategy years ago IF you knew you'd be continuing to fly.

The flip side of your argument would be suggesting a person continue renting rigs for his first hundred jumps until he is really certain he wants to stay in the sport.

At a certain point, there's a definite cross over point where it absolutely makes sense if you can afford it.

Unfortunately, prices on 30-year-old flyable aircraft are considerably higher than even the best new skydiving rig. It's a considerable capital investment no matter how you look at it.

I think the thing I'd want to do is ask myself where it's all going. How far do you want to take your flying? Do you want to fly a light sport airplane in fair weather? Are you thinking that maybe someday you can turn it into a flight instructor gig?

Lots of things to consider there.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lowapproach 0]

Just for giggles, if you were to buy your own aircraft, i searched controller.com for a decent training plane that could grow with you (and be attractive for a lease back to a flight school). Here are the costs (estimated) that you could expect.
http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/CESSNA-172N-SKYHAWK/1979-CESSNA-172N-SKYHAWK/1169495.htm

This is a 160HP very high time Cessna 172 with no mention of damage history and a recently overhauled engine. It is IFR certified and could help you with additional training later on.

Your fixed costs based on a $45,000 purchase price (these are guesses and can vary widely depending on where you are in the country). This list is not necessarily complete:


Upfront costs
Prebuy Inspection $500

Fixed costs (monthly)
Loan payment (45K, 20% down, 10 year, 7.5% interest) $427.33
Insurance (this is a guess based on $1800/year, 1MM, 100K per) $150.00
Tie-down $150.00
Annual inspection (inspection only, est $1200) $100.00
Total monthly fixed costs: $827.33

Monthly flying costs (best guess based on total 150 hours flying per year)
Fuel (8 gallons per hour @ 4.50 /gallon = $5400.00) $450.00
Engine reserve (based on $40k and 1800 TBO = $22/hour and 12.5 hours per month) $275.00
Avionic reserver (wild assed guess, $10/hour and 12.5 hours per month) $125.00
Miscl maint reserver ($10/ hour and 12.5 hours per month) 125.00
Total monthly flying costs $975.00
Per hour cost (12.5 hours per month) $78.00

Year 1 fixed (12 x 827.33) $ 9927.96
Year 1 flying (150 hours x $78/hr) $11,700
Year 1 total = $144.19 per hour of flying


BUT, you own the plane. No scheduling problems (unless you do a leaseback) and you fly the same plane every time, great for consistency.

[boyfalldown 0]

I'll second the buy a plane plan. I knew going in I'd stick with it and couldn't justify spending $10,000 in rental fees for my first hundred hours. By buying a 172 my monthly plane payment is fixed at $260 , and fuel is $32 an hour. During my training I was flying about 20 hours a month for a total cost of $900. Add insurance and tie down and I'm at $990 a month. Those same 20 hours in a rental 172 would have been $2180. If your flying a lot its less cost out of pocket month to month to buy vs rent. Its cheaper to buy an older 150, luscombe, taylorcraft, or a pacer, fly it for 100 hour and sel it rather than rent.

Owning also makes it possible to do something with a plane. Rentals usually have a minimum number of hours to take one for the day, 6 hours is the minimum in my area. That means $1200 to take a rental to the dropzone for the weekend regardless of how many hours you fly it.

There are plenty of 2 place planes out there in the $15-$20,000 range. 150's Luscombes, Taylorcrafts are easy to find in decent shape with mid time engines in those price ranges. Early 172's and pacers can be had in great shape for low to mid 20's if you want to step up to 4 seats.

Jim

[sinjin 0]

i did mine about 4 months ago. It took me 2 months and 50 hours to complete. I was going about 4 times per week. It cost me about 9k in socal which i suspect is the most expensive in the US. I would definately do a computer based course and do as much computer work before u start training. I would get the Oral exam guide when you start. Start studying that as you train so you can be ready when you get near 40 hours so you dont waste money. i didnt do that and i wish i did and i will for my instrument rating.

having said that i love having the license and i fly alot for fun. do it !!

dont let life pass you by

[blakepilot 0]

I would not recommend buying your own plane until you've got your license. A lot of things can happen in training, including possibly figuring out that flying just isn't for you. That may sound silly, but I've known several people sink thousands of dollars into training just to figure out they don't have the chops for flying. If that happens, it's easier to cut your losses and move on without having a plane attached to you. Sure, you can sublease it out to an FBO or a school, but you're delving deeper into the FAR's regarding an aircraft for charter use and the additional maintenance requirements for such. Either way, it's not cheap to own an airplane.

I would also like to stress that the FAA mandated minimum is 40 hours total time, to which I've only known 1 person throughout the different flight schools I went to during my training (out of hundreds of people) that actually did it in 40 hours. The odds are against you for a perfect 40 hours. It can be done, but it's very highly unlikely.

I actually did a lot of my post-private training with ATP flight school. The training is accelerated and they deliver quality results. It's a very large flight school that has many locations, including one near you more than likely. If not, you can crank it out in a couple months at one of their boarding campuses. Their Cessna private course runs just shy of $10k, but includes everything. For another $3k, you can train in glass cockpit Diamond aircraft. (I have about 100 hours in Diamond's and they're fantastic airplanes!)

I actually went to school to be a commercial pilot, flew 3-4 times a week, and it still took me around a year and 50 some-odd hours to get my single-engine private while juggling a full class load. You have to account for weather scrubbing and other factors beyond your control. I don't know a single place you can go to get it done in 'a couple weeks.' That seems like quite the pipe dream to me. If one can soak all that in and complete 40 hours of training in 2 weeks, then you must be a robot. There is so much more to flying than actual stick time and you'll want to know all of it to feel safe. If you can't take months off to commit to flying, then take your time and do a thorough job with all your coursework over a longer period of time. I'm a firm believer that taking the time to do it right will lead to a better pilot in the end. Plus, you're less likely to kill yourself or someone else!

[blakepilot 0]

Oh and a couple other things to watch out for...there's a lot of fuckary in the pilot school game. There is plenty of bait and switch in that industry. Smaller schools often make huge promises about delivering results in X amount of time but rarely deliver. This isn't to say that small schools are bad, because many of them are quite good, but use your gut instinct. Before you court a few schools, take a primer about aircraft maintenance records and check them out for yourself. Any charter operation should gladly furnish all records they must keep for the FAA anyway if asked. Just like some DZ's might have a tendency to cut corners on maintenance to increase that profit margin a bit, pilot schools will do the same. The margins are already so slim that whenever the plane farts, it ripples through the balance sheet.

Good luck to you. Flying is the second most satisfying thing I've ever done next to skydiving. Both are great hobbies, but take dedication and sacrifice to do as a career. Judging by your original post, I think you're doing this for a hobby. My advice is to keep it that way unless you own the plane! Ain't no money in flying anymore! Ask any new career pilot and they'll all tell you they aren't in it for the money. It's true!

[jonstark 8]

The average student now will have 100 hours of flight time and it will have taken a year to get that.

You will start with very little stamina. Your performance will start to deteriorate after a short time in the beginning. Know this and quit at the "next to last" landing. Don't let the instructor push you to fly for longer than you can do well. You will get tense and shaky. If you are tired you will learn little and it gets frustrating. The length of time that you can perform well will improve dramatically but it takes time.

The absolute "must do" is to fly as frequently as possible and make sure the instructor teaches what has to be checked off. Don't go a lesson without learning something new.

When you get soloed go fly at every opportunity. Even if it's touch and goes at the same old airport go fly. This is practice time. Don't practice while paying an instructor to sit next to you.

Get noise canceling headsets!!!!!

Can't advise the amount of money it might take you. I firmly believe that owning the a/c you learn in is a huge advantage. Do the math tho... These figures are a wild ass guess... Take the following as examples of possible scenarios.

a/c rental including fuel ~ $130/hr x 100 hrs = $13,000

instructor at $35/hr for 50 hours = $1800

Schools and supplies ~ $2500

Flying nap of the earth at sunrise = priceless

good luck,
jon

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Not trying to talk you out of it, as i got my PPL knowing i would rarely use it, but you need to be honest about your finances. If you can barely afford to get your PPL you will find it no easier to fly enough to stay current AND proficient. Once you get your certification the learning has only begun.
But even if you get your PPL and never fly again, it is worth every penny!

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[KermieCorleone 0]

thanks for all the info and suggestions ... keep em coming.

what are some good book recommendations for someone looking to pursue a PPL ...

Cheers

- Neil

Never make assumptions! That harmless rectangle could be two triangles having sex ...

[quade 3]

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what are some good book recommendations for someone looking to pursue a PPL ...

The Jeppesen book is good as is Kershner (I've taught from both). I'm not wild about Machado (I think he is a little too jokey), but I know some people like him.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Belgian_Draft 0]

One that was suggested by my examiner on my practical, and I wished I had known about it during my training, is "Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langewiesche.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[AviationTD 0]

Learning to fly is expensive, no question about it. All the previous posts are great advices that you can take. AOPA is probably the best source for the information that you requested.

I don't know what your background is, but I can tell you that it is expensive to stay current after you get your pilot license. I am inactive at this moment because I don't have time to stay sharp. It is better to stay on ground than to fly rustic.

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned here is experimental category. Check out the EAA if you want to know. I am building an experimental aircraft in my garage/basement. I just started and I can tell you that it is extremely fun if you like to get your hand dirty.

[quade 3]

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One that was suggested by my examiner on my practical, and I wished I had known about it during my training, is "Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langewiesche.

Oooh . . . uh . . . interesting book, but not actually something a person should use to study for their PPL at this point. The unfortunate truth is that even though the book is a classic and "feels" correct, it's not actually correct when it comes to things like aerodynamics.

This comment will, of course, bring about a fairly large discussion about aerodynamics, but that's my point. What you want to learn for your PPL is what the FAA says is the correct answer, not how to debate the topic.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Quote

Quote

One that was suggested by my examiner on my practical, and I wished I had known about it during my training, is "Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langewiesche.

Oooh . . . uh . . . interesting book, but not actually something a person should use to study for their PPL at this point. The unfortunate truth is that even though the book is a classic and "feels" correct, it's not actually correct when it comes to things like aerodynamics.

This comment will, of course, bring about a fairly large discussion about aerodynamics, but that's my point. What you want to learn for your PPL is what the FAA says is the correct answer, not how to debate the topic.

True, the student must give the answer the FAA wants to hear...and it isn't always the best answer.
But the book goes a long way towards understanding how to fly and aircraft vs just operating one. The usual books are great for technical details but lack helping a student develope a feel for an aircraft and their situational awareness.
So, with those points in mind, I disagree with your assertion that it is not a book one should use to help study for their PPL. I feel it has a great deal to offer a student, especially when it comes to flying with your head "outside" the aircraft.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[csubl 0]

Another alternative would be to get a Sport Pilot license. It is more restrictive than a Private, but you only need 20 hours to take the checkride, and you don't need a medical certificate.

If you decide to get a private license:

A good compromise between owning your own airplane and renting one is a flying club. You still have your own set of keys, but there are other people to help pay the bill when something breaks.

I'd suggest that you get a medical certificate before you start flying. That way if there are any issues that make you ineligible, you'll find out before you've spent the money on pre-solo flight training.

There are some TSA considerations. If you're a US citizen, you need to present either a current passport or the combination of an original birth certificate and a government issued photo ID.

If you're not a US citizen, there's a process that you have to go through before you can start training. Here's a link:
http://www.aopa.org/tsa_rule/alienft.html

I tell my students to get the knowledge test done early in their training. That way they don't have to interrupt their flying near the end of their flight training in order to study for the written.

Part 61 of the Federal Aviation Regulations requires 40 hours minimum for a private; Part 141 requires a minimum of 35 hours.

Hope this helps.