Sexual Harassment and Chivalry

[shah269 0]

I was having tea with one of my neighbors the other evening just talking about life and how things have been. She lost her mom the same week my marriage went to poop so we were each other's support systems for a little bit. She would experiment making too much dinner and I would gladly eat whatever she made :-)
Long story short she has been working in finance since the late 70's for some of the largest companies out there, we live near NYC, and we were talking about how one of the neighbors across the way was rather rude to her a few weeks back and how she was happy about how me just being me talked to the guy and reminded him that she was an older woman and should be treated with great respect. And she indicated that in her long career she has noticed that in recent years women of all ages have gotten more pity and men seem to have lost their ability to hold a conversation and behave properly.
She was telling me how in the "bad old days" of guys smoking in the office and drinking during lunch and the cat calls that things were different. In that back then when they the guys, though were rough around the edges in the office, deep down had a great respect for the women and that if anyone from outside of the company / family made a sideways comment ALL the guys would stand up and defend the woman's honor. To the point where there were a few fist thrown when someone from another company or random stranger was thrown ass over tea kettle out of a bar by a bunch of well dressed men due to a comment he made about a one of the women.
Her thinking, that all this sexual harassment issue has made us so scared so worried so.......inhuman that maybe we are forgetting what it means to be genuinely nice to someone without being sued.
In fact she indicated she couldn't remember the last time one of the guys said a single nice thing about a single item of clothing she has worn and recalls the last time one of the guys hugged her for her birthday was back in 89 which was also the last time one of the guys called her "hun".
I know some of you guys are much older than me, what are your thoughts?
I recall working in Europe the "bad old days" are still going on today and there was a great sense of family but here in the US......it just feels so cold and dead and as if we are just cogs in a machine.
What are your thoughts?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[wmw999 2,121]

There's good and bad. To go with the lack of family atmosphere is the lack of paternalism that made it harder for women to get ahead.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skyrider 0]

I live in a bikers world, we still open doors for women, , so we can grab their ass as they walk in!

I hug all my female friends when we greet! Some of them flash me to say hello!

BUT, Insult one of our women, or touch her without her permission, Your lookin at a serious ass kickin!

Corporate world? yep, My wife has to live in that world, people have been forced to leave the "Human" at the door, and operate as machines with no personality!

[shah269 0]

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There's good and bad. To go with the lack of family atmosphere is the lack of paternalism that made it harder for women to get ahead.

Wendy P.

Wendy I never saw it that way.
And Sky....yeah I know what you mean by leav your humanity at the door.
I got spoken about the other day becasue some ladies from S Carolina found my skydiving mag and my to my friend about going to the biker bar after a beer light comes out to hang out with the bikers and the girls waring leather chaps a bit insulting.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[JohnRich 4]

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all this sexual harassment issue has made us so scared so worried so.......inhuman that maybe we are forgetting what it means to be genuinely nice to someone without being sued. In fact she indicated she couldn't remember the last time one of the guys said a single nice thing about a single item of clothing she has worn and recalls the last time one of the guys hugged her for her birthday was back in 89 which was also the last time one of the guys called her "hun".

She's correct. Corporate America doesn't allow shows of affection from men to women.

[airtwardo 6]

I was having tea with one of my neighbors the other evening just talking about life...

Ya lost me at the 1st line d00d.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[shah269 0]

You know I just took my Sexual Harassment training today. Do you know I can't say a simple thing as "Nice hair cut." or comment on any cloathing!
Not one! Not even, nice shoes!
There is also a stipulation where by if you see some one in need of say....hand lotion or anything like that you really can't offer them any unless THEY ASK FOR IT!
So if some dude has cut his finger, the ladies can't walk over and offer him a band aid unless he asks for it. But then they suggest he put the band aid on himself.
WTF!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[JohnMitchell 14]

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in her long career she has noticed that in recent years women of all ages have gotten more pity and men seem to have lost their ability to hold a conversation and behave properly.

Did you mean "pity" or "pissy"? There used to be a lot of inappropriate behavior in the workplace. A lot of women found it demeaning. The first wave to fight against it had a real uphill battle. They were the femi-nazis, the shock troops.

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the cat calls that things were different. In that back then when they the guys, though were rough around the edges in the office, deep down had a great respect for the women and that if anyone from outside of the company / family made a sideways comment ALL the guys would stand up and defend the woman's honor.

Sounds like a bunch of macho hypocrisy. "I can grab her ass when she walks by, 'cause I work with (own) her. Some stranger better not. I have to protect her honor (my property)." Stupid.

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Her thinking, that all this sexual harassment issue has made us so scared so worried so.......inhuman that maybe we are forgetting what it means to be genuinely nice to someone without being sued.

I remember some of my older coworkers from the eighties, still trying to prove women could do well in a man's world and working against a lot of men who thought they should be in the kitchen. Yes, they could be a little militant sometimes. Being a Texan, I had a hard time not holding doors open or deferring to the "weaker sex." But most women were fine with compliments, as long as they weren't innuendo laced.

The younger women I work with now seem much more relaxed about all this. They grew up knowing they could be doctors, astronauts, soldiers, etc., and take gender equality for granted. They feel secure in it and aren't easily offended by some small remark. It's because of the work of earlier women that they can enjoy this environment. It's much more relaxed, I think.

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In fact she indicated she couldn't remember the last time one of the guys said a single nice thing about a single item of clothing she has worn and recalls the last time one of the guys hugged her for her birthday was back in 89 which was also the last time one of the guys called her "hun".

No compliments on her clothes? Well, heck, maybe she needs a makeover. Who knows? But the hug and the "Hun"? Probably not that okay in the office. More okay if they go out for drinks after work.

I bet she's a pretty nice woman, but I can't tell from afar what vibe she gives off. Some women are friendly and have a great sense of humor, some aren't and don't, just like men.

I know that in my work place, as an instructor, I prefer to be a little more reserved around female trainees. They're young, often quite pretty, and some of them endure a little too much attention, which they have little power to deflect. Once they check out and have the same job status and security as I do, (and can tell me to piss off if they want to) I'm more comfortable chatting and joking with them. I still remember I'm married and as old as their dads.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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You know I just took my Sexual Harassment training today. Do you know I can't say a simple thing as "Nice hair cut." or comment on any cloathing!

I've had some of that training too. I can tell a woman in the workplace I like her hair cut.

[BIGUN 1,053]

Oh bullshit.
That's taking things to the extreme.
There's a difference between "complimentary" and "insulting with sexual innuendo."

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[shah269 0]

I'm sorry I meant to say petty.
And no from what she indicated there was no "grabbing" but more of a
"Hi gorgeous"
"Hey handsome"
kind of way to start the morning.
And she dresses very well and takes care of herself and is just a great person.
Another thing she recalls and misses, the little gifts.
She processes stock options and all that fun stuff and every now and again the guys to say thank you would pick her up some chocolates or a sandwich or something as a way of saying thank you.
All she gets now she says is a distant email saying "Thanks"

I guess the world has changed. What we gain with one hand we loose with the toher.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[skyrider 0]

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all this sexual harassment issue has made us so scared so worried so.......inhuman that maybe we are forgetting what it means to be genuinely nice to someone without being sued. In fact she indicated she couldn't remember the last time one of the guys said a single nice thing about a single item of clothing she has worn and recalls the last time one of the guys hugged her for her birthday was back in 89 which was also the last time one of the guys called her "hun".

She's correct. Corporate America doesn't allow shows of affection from men to women.

But let someone complain about Man on man, or woman on woman, and your looking at a lawsuit ..

[billvon 2,396]

> Do you know I can't say a simple thing as "Nice hair cut." or comment
> on any cloathing!

Sure you can. You just have to:

1) not make sexual innuendos
2) stop if it makes the other person uncomfortable

>So if some dude has cut his finger, the ladies can't walk over and
>offer him a band aid unless he asks for it.

?? What are you talking about?

[shah269 0]

For real, if you see walk by and you some woman sees some guy with a paper cut.....they really want her guy with the cut to ask for the help firt. And even then they want the guy or gal to fix himself.
God forbid we have any human contact.

I guess soon we'll all work from home and reproduce via some sort of social network system?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[billvon 2,396]

>and reminded him that she was an older woman and should be treated
>with great respect.

I gotta call bullshit on that. Yes, she should be treated with great respect. But that's because she's another human being, not because she's old or female.

>it just feels so cold and dead and as if we are just cogs in a machine.

Depends where you are I suppose. Doesn't feel like that here.

[billvon 2,396]

>For real, if you see walk by and you some woman sees some guy with
>a paper cut.....they really want her guy with the cut to ask for the help firt.
>And even then they want the guy or gal to fix himself.

I couldn't parse that sentence.

But here's a story from my place of employment:

Got hit by a car on the way to work one day. I wasn't badly hurt but had lost a lot of skin. I was only about 1/4 mile from work so I walked the rest of the way bleeding all over the place.

We have this tiny healthcare center that can do things like physical therapy and can give referrals. They have one part time physician's assistant. She saw me come in, helped me get my shirt off (that hurt) then cleaned all the abrasions on my back that I couldn't reach. I got the ones on my arms and knees. She then badgered me about going to a doctor (which I didn't; I have one at home) and wanted to walk me back to my desk.

So I guess my experience is different than yours.

[shah269 0]

Yeah we are an office.
No health care center or anything that nice.
We are lucky to have windows!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[virgigirlie 0]

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I'm sorry I meant to say petty.
And no from what she indicated there was no "grabbing" but more of a
"Hi gorgeous"
"Hey handsome"
kind of way to start the morning.
And she dresses very well and takes care of herself and is just a great person.
Another thing she recalls and misses, the little gifts.
She processes stock options and all that fun stuff and every now and again the guys to say thank you would pick her up some chocolates or a sandwich or something as a way of saying thank you.
All she gets now she says is a distant email saying "Thanks"

I guess the world has changed. What we gain with one hand we loose with the toher.

From this and the original post, it sounds more to me like she misses the attention she used to get. And I think that the fact that she no longer gets chocolates or as many compliments may be the changing times in general (or her aging ) more than any sexual harassment laws. Just my opinion and you know her better than I do, obviously.

Every office I've worked in has had its share of mild flirtations and "Hey, nice shirt" or "New tie?" but it's still probably inappropriate to be hugging people at work (as opposed to after work at the bar or something) unless something particular warrants it. One of the women I worked with once came in after having found out her husband had colon cancer. She needed a hug. And no one said anything when I hugged her or when one of our male coworkers did.

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To go with the lack of family atmosphere is the lack of paternalism that made it harder for women to get ahead.
Wendy I never saw it that way.

Well, your perspective on what keeps women from getting ahead is skewed because you've never been a woman. Being harassed and/or diminished and/or discriminated against because you have boobies (and clearly can't take care of yourself - you need a man for that) certainly kept many women down.

"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." ~Catherine Aird

[wmw999 2,121]

To expand. Chivalry is what you give extra to women because they're women. It's not free, and the cost is letting yourself be bound by assumptions.

Freely-given politeness is a different thing entirely, as are most smiles.

Equality requires that one expect less where one used to get more, to go along with expecting more where one used to get less.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[turtlespeed 212]

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To expand. Chivalry is what you give extra to women because they're women. It's not free, and the cost is letting yourself be bound by assumptions.

Freely-given politeness is a different thing entirely, as are most smiles.

Equality requires that one expect less where one used to get more, to go along with expecting more where one used to get less.

Wendy P.

. . . and in reality, it is a double edged sword.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wmw999 2,121]

Absolutely. That was the intent of the less-clearly-worded "Equality requires that one expect less where one used to get more, to go along with expecting more where one used to get less.***

That saying "freedom isn't free" applies to lots more than the military.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[turtlespeed 212]

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Absolutely. That was the intent of the less-clearly-worded "Equality requires that one expect less where one used to get more, to go along with expecting more where one used to get less.***

That saying "freedom isn't free" applies to lots more than the military.

Wendy P.

Yep, nothing like getting scorned and berated at a movie theatre for holding the door for, what at first appeared to be a lady, but ended up just being a female. Evidently, she didn't want me holding the door open for her, and groweled out something about me being fake and manipulative, then looked at me and said that Chivalry died a long time ago.

Didn't stop me . . . I just smiled and held firm to the door . . . and I let the old couple behind her through too. The elderly lady said "Thank you" and I smiled a little wider, and genuine this time.

I couldn't hear the words of the woman as she discussed the other's attitude as they settled in line for popcorn, she was descreet and kept her voice very low. The look she gave was intense and profound. I wouldn't have wanted to be under that scrutiny, and evidently neither did the other woman, she left the theatre with her head hung pretty low.

The woman looked over and smiled, apparently pretty satisfied.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wmw999 2,121]

Doesn't take either a man or a woman to be rude. She was rude. Me, I'll go right through that door with a smile, and if there are two in a row, I'll hold the next one with a smile.

There's nothing wrong with people feeling good about being nice, and robbing them of the opportunity is tacky.

But it's also tacky for a woman to wait at the door for a man to open it just because she's a woman, rather than because her arms are full (or something like that).

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[turtlespeed 212]

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Doesn't take either a man or a woman to be rude. She was rude. Me, I'll go right through that door with a smile, and if there are two in a row, I'll hold the next one with a smile.

There's nothing wrong with people feeling good about being nice, and robbing them of the opportunity is tacky.

But it's also tacky for a woman to wait at the door for a man to open it just because she's a woman, rather than because her arms are full (or something like that).

Wendy P.

What about the whole go to the other side and open the car door thing? I do that too.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[brettski74 0]

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your perspective on what keeps women from getting ahead is skewed because you've never been a woman

Your perspective is similarly skewed because you've only ever been female.