Skydiving is risky but safe

[rigging65 0]

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i agree with what you said, but i don't think im "committing suicide everytime i jump unless i do something". That would imply i'm trying to kill myself - or - i like the idea of death.

Not at all. "Attempting suicide" would imply you're trying to kill yourself. "Committing suicide" implies you've put into motion an action that will kill you. The fact is, if you exit an airplane and do nothing from that point on YOU WILL DIE (cypres use excluded to prove the point). Committing suicide doesn't mean you like the idea of death, it means you're performing an action that is going to kill you.

IMO, the action of exiting a plane is the same as pointing and firing a gun at your head. If you just sit there, you're going to die. Now, if you could move fast enough, catch the bullet, whatever...that would constitute opening your canopy. BUT, exiting the plane is starting a path that will end in death without you're intervention, the same as shooting a bullet at your head is. You just have more time to get the canopy out than you do to stop the bullet.
It's not the same as riding a bike in traffic, because that could very easily not end in your death. It's not the same as riding a motorcycle fast in the curves, as that's not guaranteed to kill you either. If you don't do anything after you exit though, you're not going to live (understanding, of course, there is always a chance you might, just as you might live through shooting yourself in the head.).

I think people generally get caught up in the emotion of the word. "Suicide" means to kill oneself. Leave behind the emotional baggage, it's just a word.

Of course, we're totally off topic here. The point is: Skydiving isn't safe. We all know that deep down, and we all need to admit that while standing up in front of the world. We choose to do it because it makes us feel more alive...but that doesn't make it safe...or sane!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[pds 0]

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what is no longer new enough to be looked down upon and considered naive? Serious question...not facitious..)

hmmm......

a good start would be to recognize the specious nature of the following statement:

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(again, unless you go by the dictionary definition of 'safe", but if you do then nothing we do in life is safe..nothing at all).

namaste, motherfucker.

[AndyMan 7]

Of course by the same definition, driving towards an intersection where the light is red is also attempting suicide. Only by applying the brake are you avoiding it.

Jumping has nothing to do with suicide. That idea has far too many negative connotations to be applicable.

That said, it is not a safe activity. If I wanted safety, I would ride a roller coaster or play golf.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[rigging65 0]

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Of course by the same definition, driving towards an intersection where the light is red is also attempting suicide. Only by applying the brake are you avoiding it.

Not true...especially in today's vehicles. I'm a Volunteer Firefighter/EMT and you'd be amazed at how many people walk away (or would if we'd let them) from head on, high speed auto accidents. For the comparison to be valid, it would need to be something that basically is impossible to live through...like stepping in front of a big rig going 75 mph...something most people would consider "suicide".

Again, loose the emotional baggage and look at the meaning of the word. That's the last I'll say on (not because I don't like the debate, but because I don't want this thread to get any more derailed that it already is!!)

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[cesslon 0]

"When was the last time you heard of a meteor hitting someone? "
2 years ago a woman got hit in the leg by 1 and it left a bruise , there was also a near call in my country where 1 shot through a window and missed a woman on her lounge chair

also just last year a kid almost got hit by 1 in his drive way , missed him by 5 foot and left a small hole in the ground.

its rare
a lot rarer then skydiving injuries anyway

so be safe every1 , im only new to this sport but i know its dangerous and am always trying to learn safety first from the most experienced people

[vamp 0]

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It would change because any additional risk to my life would become something I'd try to get away from for my children's sake. If he died - regardless of the cause - I would reduce ALL risks to my life as much as I possibly could. I wouldn't stop jumping just because HE is the one that bounced....I'd stop jumping if he died, regardless of the cause of death. (because I have three small children)

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So right now you don't have any qualms about it, but if spousy dies, then you do? Interesting.

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[MarkM 0]

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For the comparison to be valid, it would need to be something that basically is impossible to live through...like stepping in front of a big rig going 75 mph...something most people would consider "suicide".

Ahh, jaywalking. Now that's an extreme sport. I especially like their moto: The moment you step onto the road you're dead until you take action to move off of it.

And they don't even have safety devices like AADs. Imagine if a meteor hit you in the head while crossing the road and knocked you unconscious. You'd be road pizza man, road pizza. So stay safe out there and keep looking up while crossing the road!

[dnewcomer 0]

Pedro,
Skydiving very risky.
But consider: some people have 10,000 or 15,000 jumps and were never seriously injured. How can that be? Is their luck going to run out soon?
Short answer: They are VERY careful! We can do things to minimize our risk (and they really work, when applied properly).
Dave

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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For the comparison to be valid, it would need to be something that basically is impossible to live through...like stepping in front of a big rig going 75 mph...something most people would consider "suicide".

Ahh, jaywalking. Now that's an extreme sport. I especially like their moto: The moment you step onto the road you're dead until you take action to move off of it.

And they don't even have safety devices like AADs. Imagine if a meteor hit you in the head while crossing the road and knocked you unconscious. You'd be road pizza man, road pizza. So stay safe out there and keep looking up while crossing the road!

lmfao!!

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It would change because any additional risk to my life would become something I'd try to get away from for my children's sake. If he died - regardless of the cause - I would reduce ALL risks to my life as much as I possibly could. I wouldn't stop jumping just because HE is the one that bounced....I'd stop jumping if he died, regardless of the cause of death. (because I have three small children)

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So right now you don't have any qualms about it, but if spousy dies, then you do? Interesting.

I thought the same thing. I mean, I can sorta see where she's coming from. . Kid with no parents. But, then, let's be serious for a min here... if they both jump, then likely they both jump together at times... and hell, this could leave the kids with no parents.

I am not a mother, so I can't say how i'd feel about this.

Angela.

[labrys 0]

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Heh..I never said that there isn't a chance I could bounce..I know I could.

Heh... I never questioned you on that issue.

Owned by Remi #?

[elfanie 0]

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So right now you don't have any qualms about it, but if spousy dies, then you do? Interesting.

I never said that I don't have any qualms about it...I never said that the risk that it imposes doesn't make me nervous. I said that right now I consider it a safe activity to engage in (and I defined "safe" several times)

if my husband died...I would be in a different situation in life...which could require different choices.

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Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[Erroll 49]

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***i The point is: Skydiving isn't safe. We all know that deep down, and we all need to admit that while standing up in front of the world. We choose to do it because it makes us feel more alive...but that doesn't make it safe...or sane!

Agreed. One can play with words and semantics all day long, comparing apples to meteors or oranges to roller coasters.

By definition safe means free from risk. "Safe" does not equate to risk-management or risk/reward or being careful or any of the other meanings some posters are attributing to it. Risk management is essential in skydiving exactly because skydiving is dangerous, otherwise why bother?

Safe means secure from threat of danger, harm, or loss (Merriam-Webster).


Skydiving is not secure from threat of danger, harm or loss. Skydiving is not safe.

[LuvToFly 0]

Folks,

Understand what you are saying -

But some of you are so experienced, and you have failed to see the sport from a Newbie eye..

From the Newbie eye, at least from the conservative newbie eye - I think folks are frigin' nuts. Swooping looks like an accident waiting to happen - just a few feet off and, "smack." Low turns, casual about equipment checks, I have watched some very experieced skydivers very closely, and frankly, I'm scared for them.

This is not a wimp talking, I fly helicopters, have done free flying, etc. And although nothing is 100% safe, I have to believe that pushing the limits is by far the causes of injury and death in this sport.

You need to take at look from the Newbie eye who has been taught all of the safety rules. To me, I want to stick around to enjoy the sport - so no swooping, no low turns, no flying in too high winds, and on and on. It needs to be fun -

Had some skydivers tell me, "Oh, thats how you feel now when you have 40 jumps.. but once you get more experienced, you'll be doing the same kind of moves.." Wrong. Won't do it. Too old to be that foolish- don't want to test it.

If you took all the stats for every single injury and death in this sport (yes, I have read tons of them), and stripped it of all preventable incidents, you'd probably be looking at something much safer than driving, less injuries than soccer or football, and more appealing than many other sports. It is not the malfunctions, but the screwing off, carelessness and thinking one can get away with testing the limits (i.e. arrogance) that creates all the stats in this sport, and that is what gives it a bad name -

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

[Newbie 0]

ah ok i hear ya.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Ron 7]

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unless it was my husband..if my husband bounced, yes...I'd quit

Why its just a fatality?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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as a side note...at what point do people stop saying that they are "new to the sport"? 5 years? 10? 100 jumps? 1000 jumps? 5000 jumps? what is no longer new enough to be looked down upon and considered naive? Serious question...not facitious

Serious reply....
Generally I don't take anyone seroiusly till they have 500 jumps. Most people never make it there. I expect people with less than 100 jumps to never show up again. Take a look at the number of AFF grads that still jump. Here at Zhills we have a bunch of pictures of AFF grads that I have never seen since the picture.

5 years in the sport...I think you have seen enough.

And when you stop saying things like skydiving is safe.

Have you noticed that all the experienced folks don't think that way?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pkasdorf 0]

May be we can have more consensus on this other statement which I think true:

SKYDIVING IS ONE OF THE SAFEST RISKY SPORTS

I'm starting a new poll on this one

HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

[Amazon 7]

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It may sound as a contradiction but I say that:

Skydiving is risky but safe

Risky because you risk death everytime you jump out of an airplane

Safe because human mistakes account for nearly 100% of accidents and human mistakes is what we can and should avoid by learning, training and knowing our limitations

Hey its been riskier.. but back in the 1950's when our club was formed it was a LOT RISKIER.. here is a photo from that hallowed time

[Ron 7]

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May be we can have more consensus on this other statement which I think true:

SKYDIVING IS ONE OF THE SAFEST RISKY SPORTS

You can do as you please.

I don't see it as safe. I don't think it is a death wish either.

I really hate it when folks compare driving, an activity that most people need and an activity that Billions of folks do. To Skydiving, a recreational sport that only a few do ever and fewer do as a hobby.

And comparing it to random freak accidents like the chances of me dying while eating a ham sandwich....Yes it has happened, but almost EVERYONE that is alive eats sandwhiches.

Or about the roller coaster deaths. You will die everytime you jump out of an airplane unless you and your gear work correctly. The same cannot be said for roller coasters..Plus, many more rides are given on roller coasters every year than skydives made.

The logic behind each of these arguments is flawed.

Ever notice that the folks that have been in the sport for a few years don't call skydiving "safe"? Its only the newer jumpers?

Think there is a reason why the old timers don't call it safe, but the newbies do?

Simple, we don't need to lie to ourselves to feel safe. The day I really realized that I could die skydiving even if I did everything right was quite a day for me...Quite scarry, and quite liberating at the same time. Some people quit when they realize that.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pkasdorf 0]

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May be we can have more consensus on this other statement which I think true:

SKYDIVING IS ONE OF THE SAFEST RISKY SPORTS

Ever notice that the folks that have been in the sport for a few years don't call skydiving "safe"? Its only the newer jumpers?

Think there is a reason why the old timers don't call it safe, but the newbies do?

OK Ron, got your point and fully agree. But as you know I never compared with eating sandwiches or being hit by meteors. And I am very serious about safety.

Some time ago I started a poll on if a skydiver who consistently practised the sport with risky behavior should be grounded, my opinion being that he should be talked to and if he (or she) did not change, ground him or her because it meant not only danger to himself but also to others. Of course somebody wrote about "canopy nazis", etc., etc. It was very interesting... I tell you this to state that I am very safety conscious.

But I thought that you would agree that skydiving is one of the safest risky sports.

HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

[LuvToFly 0]

"Ever notice that the folks that have been in the sport for a few years don't call skydiving "safe"? Its only the newer jumpers?

Think there is a reason why the old timers don't call it safe, but the newbies do?"
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There definitely is a reason. And one of the biggest reasons is because the newer folks are not pushing the envelope, and the more experienced folks are. The folks that are doing the advanced maneuvers should be more frightened of injury or death - if they are flying less forgiving canopies the size of a hankerchief, doing spirals out of the sky, and squeezing the most they can get out of a chute and a jump, there IS cause to be more concerned because you are making the dive more dangerous - regardless of experience level.

Also, I am not sure that anyone is actually arguing that skydiving is 'SAFE' I did not read that into any post per se -

I think the point is, while there is risk involved, we CAN make it a lot less safe depending on how much we increase our risks -

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

[velo90 0]

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Think there is a reason why the old timers don't call it safe, but the newbies do?"
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There definitely is a reason. And one of the biggest reasons is because the newer folks are not pushing the envelope, and the more experienced folks are.

No, that if definately not the reason. I think the reason is that the more experienced folks are not blinded by their enthusiasm for the sport. They have seen a lot more things go wrong than the newbies.
Some of the bad things are "hidden" from newbies.
Don't forget the fatalities are not only manifestation of the dangers. There are non-fatal accidents as well, many of which are not ever reported.
I have never seen so many people being carted off in ambulances before I got into this sport.

I am not just worried about dying, I am also worried about the nasty injuries I am likely to get before I leave the sport.

[Ron 7]

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There definitely is a reason. And one of the biggest reasons is because the newer folks are not pushing the envelope, and the more experienced folks are

Look at the fatalities from last year.

http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=1%2F1%2F2003&MaxDate=31%2F12%2F2003&Country=US&CountryOp=%3D

24 deaths (good year, thanks for not getting killed everyone!)

5 had more than 1,000 jumps.
1 had 9,000 jumps

12 had more than 300
11 had less than 300

5 had less than 100

11 had less than 300, 12 had more than 300, 1 I don't know about.

Seems pretty equally spread at around 300 jumps...I personally don't see 300 jumps as that experienced.

As for pushing the limit.

4 hook turns. 3 by folks with more than 500 jumps,and one with around 44.

1 guy that buzzed a bridge with a wingsuit...A poorly planned stunt gone bad.

The rest were malfunctions, and low turns due to panic.

So you are wrong....5 deaths from "pushing the limit".

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[relyon 0]

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unless it was my husband..if my husband bounced, yes...I'd quit

Why its just a fatality?

She fully explained her reasons and you know it. Stop trolling.

Bob

[rigging65 0]

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But some of you are so experienced, and you have failed to see the sport from a Newbie eye..

With absolutely no insult intended, this is the reason why experienced jumpers are able to say the sport isn't safe...because they're experienced. There is no "Newbie" point of view...there is only reality. The fact that when you're new, you don't know everything that goes on, or have a frame of reference to compare events to, doesn't change reality.

The sport isn't safe. It's not safe for Newbies, it's not safe for the 300-500 jump "teenagers" and it's not safe for the more experienced folks.

Its OK to admit that you do things that aren't safe. Society seems to have this stigma about that. I think it's one of the reasons why people try to justify having a small reserve instead of just standing up and saying "yes, I know its not as safe as it should be, but its cool and I like it, and I accept the risk (and ridicule) that comes with having it."

But see, we don't do that. Do we not want to hear the shit from others? Probably. Do we not want to admit that we're being vain? Probably. Do we not want to take personal responsibility? Most likely.

Grow a spine and say it like it is. "I skydive even though I know its not safe and I might be killed doing it...even if I do it perfectly. I take these risks freely and accept any abuse I might take from my family and friends about it BECAUSE WHAT I THINK ABOUT ME IS MORE IMPORTANT TO ME THAN WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT ME."

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."