Skydiving is risky but safe

[Arvoitus 1]

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Lying in bed with the covers over your head is safe (assuming you remembered to turn the stove off before going to bed).

If you lay on your bed long enough you'll get bedsores which can get infected and the infection can then kill you. So I would not call that a safe activity to engage in.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[dorbie 0]

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human mistakes is what we can and should avoid by learning, training and knowing our limitations

What species are you?

If you think you can avoid human mistakes you are fooling yourself.

You can reduce (not eliminate) your personal exposure but that often involves having less fun or looking less cool.

[nerd137 0]

I love how, no matter how many times this debate resurfaces, people get so angry in their attempts to sway the entire skydiving community to believe the sport is roughly the most dangerous thing - EVER! (I'm exaggerating just a little.) Seriously, isn't thinking of "safe" and "not safe" in stark black and white either/or terms kinda silly? Aren't those both largely subjective assessments? I perceive skydiving as risky relative to bowling and driving but safe relative to BASE jumping and Russian Roulette. So what? That's my opinion. Agree, disagree, whatever. But some of you guys are getting waaaaaaay bent out of shape when someone has the audacity to claim skydiving isn't all that dangerous. Really, who fucking cares?

Besides, if the discussion is framed in absolutes, as frequently is done here, it's totally pointless until someone defines "safe" and "not safe" it absolute terms and everyone agrees on those definitions. Personally, I don't think it's even possible to do that in a meaningful way.

[/rant]

I guess I'll go back to my shit work now.

[billvon 2,379]

>But some of you guys are getting waaaaaaay bent out of shape when
>someone has the audacity to claim skydiving isn't all that dangerous.
>Really, who fucking cares?

I do.

Many of us are instructors, and thus we're the first and most authoritative source of information most students get before their first jump. I have no problem with someone risking their lives to do something they think is going to be fun, challenging or otherwise worthwhile to them. I DO have a problem with people taking that risk thinking that it's a safe amusement park ride.

Let's turn it around. Let's say your wife gets a ride home with a friend of yours. It turns out that he was falling-down drunk, but he hides it well, and they make it home with only a minor incident with a bush in your driveway. She didn't notice anything much wrong, other than he seemed to be a bit swervy.

The next time he's drunk and offers her a ride home, would you have any issue with her taking that ride? Would you perhaps tell her that he drinks a lot, and sometimes seems less drunk than he is? After all, that ride home is still safer than Russian Roulette.

[nerd137 0]

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>But some of you guys are getting waaaaaaay bent out of shape when
>someone has the audacity to claim skydiving isn't all that dangerous.
>Really, who fucking cares?

I do.

Many of us are instructors, and thus we're the first and most authoritative source of information most students get before their first jump. I have no problem with someone risking their lives to do something they think is going to be fun, challenging or otherwise worthwhile to them. I DO have a problem with people taking that risk thinking that it's a safe amusement park ride.

Let's turn it around. Let's say your wife gets a ride home with a friend of yours. It turns out that he was falling-down drunk, but he hides it well, and they make it home with only a minor incident with a bush in your driveway. She didn't notice anything much wrong, other than he seemed to be a bit swervy.

The next time he's drunk and offers her a ride home, would you have any issue with her taking that ride? Would you perhaps tell her that he drinks a lot, and sometimes seems less drunk than he is? After all, that ride home is still safer than Russian Roulette.

You are soooo not who I was directing my rant towards. Haha. I don't recall you ever getting "way bent out of shape" when someone here argued that skydiving is on the safer side of the spectrum.

While my point was largely just that distinctions such as "safe" and "unsafe" are highly subjective, you do make a good point that there will always be people completely miss the mark in their assessment of skydiving's inherent risks. I'll give ya that.

[Matitemel 0]

Risky yeah BECAUSE it's not safe!!!

My friends had so much accidents ...

But anyway, we take risks and we love it!

Mélanie

Check out my new website!!! :) www.greentimes.com.au or the page on FB Green Times !!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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While my point was largely just that distinctions such as "safe" and "unsafe" are highly subjective, you do make a good point that there will always be people completely miss the mark in their assessment of skydiving's inherent risks. I'll give ya that.

It's basic human nature to gloss over the risk/downsides of activities we want to do. Or to blindly say, yeah, bad things happen, but they happen to other people, not me. It works great until it doesn't. Then people or their families start filing lawsuits and we all suffer the consequences of their rosy visions.

And FFS, if you're using Russian Roulette as a comparison, the argument is lame.

[nerd137 0]

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It's basic human nature to gloss over the risk/downsides of activities we want to do. Or to blindly say, yeah, bad things happen, but they happen to other people, not me. It works great until it doesn't. Then people or their families start filing lawsuits and we all suffer the consequences of their rosy visions.

And FFS, if you're using Russian Roulette as a comparison, the argument is lame.

Wow. What an amazing, thought-provoking criticism. "Your argument is lame." Man. I'm blown away at the insightfulness of that one.

More than a few posters in this thread, in my opinion, seem hell-bent on creating the impression that the dangers of skydiving are roughly equivlenant to that of Russian Roulette. It is dangerous, but it's not THAT dangerous.

[kelpdiver 2]

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More than a few posters in this thread, in my opinion, seem hell-bent on creating the impression that the dangers of skydiving are roughly equivlenant to that of Russian Roulette. It is dangerous, but it's not THAT dangerous.

Your opinion is crap. How's that for thought provoking criticism?

Find us a posting where someone said that doing a jump has a 1 in 6 chance of death.

[nerd137 0]

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Your opinion is crap. How's that for thought provoking criticism?

Find us a posting where someone said that doing a jump has a 1 in 6 chance of death.

Do you understand the difference between "rough equivalent" and "equivalent"?

[waterboy3412 0]

Of course skydiving isn't 100% safe, i think we've beaten that horse to death in these last 7 pages. And I know a lot of people here value your opinion based on jump numbers so sorry in advance for not knowing what I'm talking about.

But lets talk for a minute on why people jump from airplanes. It's not suicidal but its more deadly than eating a ham sandwich. Maybe people do it because it's not a social norm or maybe because you wanted to be apart of a group of people that appreciate life and live it to the fullest.

I knew I wanted to get into the sport right when I walked in the hanger for my first tandem. I had no knowledge of skydiving or the inherent risks that came along with it. After I landed I had never been more excited, im sure you all know the feeling so i dont need to explain. Anyways, i was hooked.

So i took the FJC and started AFP. I started level one by freaking out and my instructor and I broke off and i was spinning on my back. My adrenaline was so high time seemed like it was moving in slow motion. anyways i deployed head to earth still spinning. I then looked up at a perfect canopy (thankfully). But that was the point it finally hit me that I could be killed doing this. I weighed my pros and cons and 15 mins later I was on the next load.

I think I can safely say there isn't a skydiver in the world that thinks they are going to die as they are walking up to the plane. But i am sure that most do a proper gear check and are able to make (in their eyes) the best decisions possible to come back to the hanger in one piece. So is skydiving 100% safe, no. There are ways to lower risk but that will always be apart of this sport. You just need to calculate risk vs. reward and see if this is something that you should be doing. Which is obviously going to be different from one person to the next so I don't really see how we can sway people from one side of the argument to the other.

Mike

[pkasdorf 0]

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Of course skydiving isn't 100% safe, i think we've beaten that horse to death in these last 7 pages.
.......................................................................

I think I can safely say there isn't a skydiver in the world that thinks they are going to die as they are walking up to the plane. But i am sure that most do a proper gear check and are able to make (in their eyes) the best decisions possible to come back to the hanger in one piece. So is skydiving 100% safe, no. There are ways to lower risk but that will always be apart of this sport. You just need to calculate risk vs. reward and see if this is something that you should be doing. Which is obviously going to be different from one person to the next so I don't really see how we can sway people from one side of the argument to the other.

First of all let me say that I am surprised that a poll I posted in January 2004 and had had no activity since then resurfaced in June 2009 after more than 5 years! And the intensity with which it did confirms that this is a much present topic in the community. Nobody doubts that it is risky. And only fools could claim that it is 100% safe. After all this discussion the conclusion I think most would agree is that the risk prevention and management capabilities we do have in our sport make it "safer" or "less risky" (put the definition you like better) than other risky sports. And, as you say, it is a strictly personal evaluation.

HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

[genoyamamoto 0]

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More than a few posters in this thread, in my opinion, seem hell-bent on creating the impression that the dangers of skydiving are roughly equivlenant to that of Russian Roulette. It is dangerous, but it's not THAT dangerous.

Your opinion is crap. How's that for thought provoking criticism?

Find us a posting where someone said that doing a jump has a 1 in 6 chance of death.

Not exactly one in six. In the following case the person is saying you will die 100% of the time unless you do something. More like russian roulette with a semi automatic pistol.

Top of pg 3: rigging65 said:

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IMO, the action of exiting a plane is the same as pointing and firing a gun at your head. If you just sit there, you're going to die. Now, if you could move fast enough, catch the bullet, whatever...that would constitute opening your canopy. BUT, exiting the plane is starting a path that will end in death without you're intervention, the same as shooting a bullet at your head is. You just have more time to get the canopy out than you do to stop the bullet. Smile

On a completely different note (nerd alert), it's interesting to note the ratio of frequentist vs. bayesian type arguments in this thread. Are all skydivers bayesian?

Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me
Feel the hate...
Photos here

[thrillstalker 0]

for me the risk is worth the thrill. skydiving is as safe as we can make it, and thats good enough for me. a 1 in a 1000 chance of dying is a lot less risky than many activities people do daily. i dont really know if you would call it safe, but it sure as hell is a lot of fun.

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

[dks13827 2]

As a jumper from the 70's, I find it very interesting that maybe 8 bounces occur a year.... that's pretty good these days. But the fatal landings we have now........ another story.
I calculated that a fatal jump occurs roughly 1 in 80,000 which to me is not too bad.
I also understand that your odds of dying in a car crash at some point are 1 in 125. Shocking, isnt it ?? If you are over age 40, think about your high school friends who have indeed been killed in cars and you will realize that 1 in 125 is in the ball park. ( please note that I did NOT say cars are worse than jumping, etc )
I always believed, and still do, that if I didnt screw up in a major way, the risk was acceptably small.

[surfbum5412 0]

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I always believed, and still do, that if I didnt screw up in a major way, the risk was acceptably small.

Thank you. +1

[surfbum5412 0]

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1 in a 1000 chance of dying is a lot less risky than many activities people do daily

That statistic is not true. Even the raw number of 32 fatalities out x number of jumps isn't accurate either because when you start looking at the fatalities, you realize that many don't apply to you (swooping, wingsuit, CRW, health conditions, no AAD, no RSL, etc...)

[thrillstalker 0]

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1 in a 1000 chance of dying is a lot less risky than many activities people do daily

That statistic is not true. Even the raw number of 32 fatalities out x number of jumps isn't accurate either because when you start looking at the fatalities, you realize that many don't apply to you (swooping, wingsuit, CRW, health conditions, no AAD, no RSL, etc...)

are you saying that becuase im a student i dont have as much risk or more? or are you saying that some daily activities arent as dangerous as 1 in a 1000? please explain a little more.

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

[surfbum5412 0]

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1 in a 1000 chance of dying is a lot less risky than many activities people do daily

That statistic is not true. Even the raw number of 32 fatalities out x number of jumps isn't accurate either because when you start looking at the fatalities, you realize that many don't apply to you (swooping, wingsuit, CRW, health conditions, no AAD, no RSL, etc...)

are you saying that becuase im a student i dont have as much risk or more? or are you saying that some daily activities arent as dangerous as 1 in a 1000? please explain a little more.

Where did you get the "1 in 1000" number to quantify the risk of skydiving?

[thrillstalker 0]

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1 in a 1000 chance of dying is a lot less risky than many activities people do daily

That statistic is not true. Even the raw number of 32 fatalities out x number of jumps isn't accurate either because when you start looking at the fatalities, you realize that many don't apply to you (swooping, wingsuit, CRW, health conditions, no AAD, no RSL, etc...)

are you saying that becuase im a student i dont have as much risk or more? or are you saying that some daily activities arent as dangerous as 1 in a 1000? please explain a little more.

Where did you get the "1 in 1000" number to quantify the risk of skydiving?

around 30 skydivers die a year with around 30000 active jumpers. 3 die for every 3000 jumpers, so that means that about 1 in 1000 jumpers die. i used that statistic not based on situation or skill level. just a ball park figure that 1 skydiver out of every 1000 will die this year.

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

[Andy9o8 0]

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around 30 skydivers die a year with around 30000 active jumpers. 3 die for every 3000 jumpers, so that means that about 1 in 1000 jumpers die. i used that statistic not based on situation or skill level. just a ball park figure that 1 skydiver out of every 1000 will die this year.

I think it's a mistake to overly rely on raw statistical analysis to assess (note I don't say "calculate" or even "estimate") the risk to oneself in skydiving. The 1 in 1,000 statistic you cite doesn't mean that on any given individual jump, your chance of death is 1 in 1,000. There are 25-30 deaths per year out of a sampling of 2.5 to 3 million individual skydives per year. So by that calculation, the "average" risk of death per skydive is more like 1 in approximately 80,000 to 100,000.

And that, alone, still doesn't adequately assess the risk on any one person's individual skydive, each of which is independently influenced by such factors as the experience level of the jumper, the experience of the other people on the same jump with him, the complexity of the jump, the canopy and other gear being jumped, how many other jumpers might be in the air (freefall or under canopy) at the same time, the jumper's chosen landing technique on that jump, the landing terrain, weather, etc.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I also understand that your odds of dying in a car crash at some point are 1 in 125. Shocking, isnt it ?? If you are over age 40, think about your high school friends who have indeed been killed in cars and you will realize that 1 in 125 is in the ball park.

Annual car death rate in the country is in the ballpark of 1 in 6000 or 1 in 7000. So 50 years of that exposure would get you down to a plausible lifetime risk of 1:125.

OTOH, the skydiving 1:1000 means that with 50 years of exposure, you'd be close to 1 in 20.

Note - this is highly simplistic summation. Car drivers tend to get safer with experience, then a very slow decline in physical skills coupled with knowledge, then a steeper drop in safety with old age. Skydivers can get safer with experience, but more risky if they continue to do more challenging acts.

[kelpdiver 2]

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a 1 in a 1000 chance of dying is a lot less risky than many activities people do daily.

Which activities are those? Shooting up with heroin?

[dks13827 2]

IMO, if one can avoid the swooping crash... have an AAD, RSL, steel reserve ripcord handle ( IMO ), then the majority, by far, of the accidents are avoidable. I always had the thought that I could, for the most part, control everything except for a reserve malfunction, and I never worried about that. You cant. There was a sky God, who, years ago, immediately fired his reserve into a streamer. It didnt work. I shake my head at how someone could do that.

[surfbum5412 0]

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around 30 skydivers die a year with around 30000 active jumpers. 3 die for every 3000 jumpers, so that means that about 1 in 1000 jumpers die. i used that statistic not based on situation or skill level. just a ball park figure that 1 skydiver out of every 1000 will die this year.

Although this is true, and I appreciate the fact that you're using quantifiable measurements and not anecdotal, the statistic says nothing about individual risk.