Risers – shorter than 18”

[Lostinspace 0]

Does anyone here use risers that are shorter than 18”? What is your experience with them?

I am 5'0” and am jumping a custom container with slinks, bumpers, and 18" risers. I have to pull on my risers to reach the slider. My brake lines are set to the mark indicated by PD. The thought of getting shorter risers has crossed my mind, which I know will reduce the amount of flare I can achieve at full arm extension. I am going to see my rigger; and I spoke with PD.

I tighten my legstraps to the point where the 2 ends of the leg pads touch. I am concerned that if I leave them a little looser, I may not be able to reach my toggles. :(

PD hero: The very critical thing is that if you do decide to shorten the lines, make sure that you can pull your toggles at least 2" before you are pulling on the tale of the canopy (and this applies through your entire skydiving career - you should check routinely as your lines shrink with usage).

Sorry if this is silly.

Thank you,
-Belinda C

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Is the main lift web too long? I thought I had that problem with my old container and then realized that the gap between my shoulders and my risers was large, and it reduced when the legstraps were tightened more. So, i'm thinking maybe if the mlw was too long you might not be able to tighten enough? My new custom container I have no problems.

I am 5'4" and use 21" risers.

Angela.

[Lostinspace 0]

it might be. or it might not be.

I only have 59 jumps. I realize I might think the wrong things. I made a list of question about the fit of the rig and am hoping to see a rigger this sunny weekend.

[Amazon 7]

HAve him check the MLW for sure I was thinking your three rings are up on your shoulders and your hip ring is a tad low....just my observation of your rig.

[Lostinspace 0]

:) I love you! Thank you.


edited to fix color.

[skycat 0]

At your DZ do you have the ability to put your rig in the hanging harness? If you are able to, do it. Then have a rigger take a look at the geometry and it's fit on you. More than likely your MLW is to long, I'm 5'1 and when under canopy ther is almost no gap between my shoulder and the yoke, I use 20 inch risers.

Fly it like you stole it!

[cbain 0]

I agree with what others have said about the MLW. I had a container that was way to big in the MLW and I couldn't reach the slider, etc very well at all.

Now I have a custom container and there is very little sapce between my shoulders and the harness yoke and now I have no problem reaching the risers.

I'm 5'0" and jump 18" risers.

When I asked about shorter risers when ordering my new container/main canopy I was told that anything shorter than 18" would start to deform the canopy in flight.

Christina

[dragon2 0]

I jump teeny tiny risers, no clue how short I'd have to measure them. But Parachutes de France risers are already shortish and I have 2" shorter. Also have a pair of Thomas Sports risers that short. I love them. anytime I'm jumping someone else's rig I have to try hard to get to the slider (and I HAVE to too since usually I jump triple risers). Hate that. Don't notice any difference in flight, although I suppose it might have some effect, as does my cheststrap that I always wear real tight. Love the short risers, I take the (maybe) slight lessening of the performance over spending a lot of time dealing with the slider. But I'm no swooper...

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Daizey 0]

I have a very similar problem. I'm 4'10 and can't reach my slider whatsoever. I have 19" risers currently and my fingers are still a few inches too shy. I was told i could go to 18 inches but anything shorter than that was not recommended...

*daizey*

[faulknerwn 36]

I'd definitely agree with the others that your container is most likely to large. I jump 18" risers on all of my Racers, and normally can reach _above_ the slider and grab lines if I wish...
I'm only 5'1...

I definitely love short risers tho.

W

[Martini 0]

Although I jump 18" risers I have a set of 21" that are way too long and gave a set of 16" risers to a short friend who loved them. Use whatever size suits your needs. A set of short risers is probably way cheaper than a MLW mod. Unless you are on the pro swoop tour your canopy performance won't be an issue. Changing riser length may require a corresponding change in brake line length.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[mjosparky 3]

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Changing riser length may require a corresponding change in brake line length.

Why? It is still 4" from the top of the riser to the guide ring on risers 24" long or 15" long.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Martini 0]

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Changing riser length may require a corresponding change in brake line length.

Why? It is still 4" from the top of the riser to the guide ring on risers 24" long or 15" long.

Sparky

Because at full arm extension on 16" risers your arms are 2" closer to the canopy than on 18" risers. The brake lines are then effectively 2' longer. Riser length doesn't affect brake setting or upper brake line length, If you want to keep your toggle stroke position and flare end-point unchanged, shorten the lower brake lines the same amount you shorten your risers.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[mjosparky 3]

No, the lower control lines are the same length in relation to the canopy. The toggles are not any closer to the canopy. Buy changing the length of the brake line you will change the brake trim of the canopy.

This is from PD's web site, it might be easier to understand.

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Cut Yourself Some Slack

The length of the control lines in particular can have a tremendous effect on a canopy’s flight and landing performance. Many jumpers are flying canopies with control lines that are too short. This can happen for a few different reasons. Like the other lines, control lines tend to shrink over time due to friction from the slider. Attaching the steering toggles farther up on the control lines will also shorten them.
If a jumper is having trouble flaring his or her canopy, a well-meaning rigger, instructor, or friend will often shorten the canopy’s control lines at the toggles. It is thought that shortening the control lines will let the jumper get “more flare” from the canopy. This is a popular idea, but unfortunately it is not correct.
We often tell students and novice jumpers to put their toggles all the way up and “let it fly” on final approach. We know that letting the canopy fly at full speed allows it to produce more lift during the flare, which results in a better landing.
When a canopy’s control lines are shortened, they may pull the tail down when the toggles are in full glide position. This means the canopy is always flying in some amount of brakes, even with the toggles all the way up. If we know that “letting it fly” helps a canopy flare better, does it really make sense to set the toggles so that the canopy is always flying in brakes?
If you are having trouble landing, look for solutions other than shortening your control lines. They might already be too short. Try a collapsible pilot chute if you don’t already have one. Ask someone to video some of your landings, and look for any mistakes you might be making. You may also want to get help from a qualified instructor.
Some jumpers have had their control lines shortened because their canopies would not stall with the toggles pulled all the way down. It’s important to realize that, if the control lines are the correct length, many canopies will not stall unless you take extra wraps on the control lines with your hands. Shortening the control lines to make a canopy easier to stall may actually make it more difficult to flare properly.
A properly executed flare results in a dynamic increase in lift. The canopy should level off and reach a minimum rate of descent, and the forward speed should also decrease, allowing for a soft landing. It is not necessary to stall the canopy to get a good landing. The canopy should keep creating lift until after you have transferred your weight on to your feet.
When a canopy stalls, there is a dramatic decrease in lift and a sudden increase in rate of descent. Basically, a stalled canopy stops flying and starts dropping quickly toward the ground. If your canopy stalls at some point during your flare before you have transferred your weight to your feet, your landing may not be very graceful.
Having your control lines too short may also be a problem if you use your front risers. Short control lines may cause a canopy to “hobble” or “buck” when the front risers are pulled down, reducing their effectiveness.
A canopy will perform best when there is a correct amount of slack in the control lines. As a general rule of thumb, when the canopy is flying with brakes released and the toggles all the way up, there should be a visible bow along the entire length of the control lines. You should have to pull the toggles down about two inches (5 cm) before the steering lines actually move the tail. Again, this is a general rule of thumb, and you may want to check with your canopy’s manufacturer for more specific instructions.
Lengthening the control lines will usually cause a canopy to stay in a dive longer after a turn, and build up more speed in the dive. If you normally use some type of high-speed approach to land, such as a front riser turn, you should use extra caution for a few jumps if you lengthen your control lines, as you would when trying a new canopy.
One advantage to having shorter control lines is that they can make a canopy feel more responsive. If the control lines are lengthened, it may take noticeably more toggle input to start a turn. Most jumpers find that the improvements in other areas more than compensate for this slight disadvantage, though.
Since the canopies we use today can last for thousands of jumps, getting your canopy relined when it needs to be is an important step in maintaining your gear. It’s an additional expense, like buying a collapsible pilot chute, but the results are worth it. Keeping your canopy in trim, setting the control lines to the correct length, and using a collapsible pilot chute will allow your main canopy to fly the way it should, and allow you to get the best performance from it.

About the author: Scott Miller is an AFF Instructor and Senior Rigger with over 7000 jumps. He currently works as a test jumper for Performance Designs, and operates The Canopy School at Skydive DeLand (www.skydivedeland.com).

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[dragon2 0]

I did take of 3 inches off the steering lines of my Safire after putting the canopy on my tiny risers. This was because otherwise the tail wouldn't start deflecting before I had my hands at chest-hight, which bugged me. I could still land it ok but didn't like the big chunk of "nothing" I had. So I shortened them, turned out a bit too much because after that the tail didn't have much slack in a max frontriser dive anymore so I think 2 inches would've been better.

Shortening the lines wasn't a necessity although I really liked flying it better with the shorter lines. The Safire has really long brake lines to start with, not like PD canopies.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Martini 0]

Your point about overly short brake lines is well taken. Obviously shortening risers 14" and shortening the brake lines accordingly would result in a canopy flying in brakes all the time. But not shortening the brake lines would leave the jumper unable to flare. ( This is probably why short risers are not reccommended because they reduce the length of the toggle stroke) I was referring to the end point of flare changing so as to possibly be beyond the jumper's reach. Many newer jumpers fail to fully flare their canopies during landing and get poor landings as a result. Lengthening the brakelines won't help. But landing by starting out in partial brakes if the brakelines are too short won't help either.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[mjosparky 3]

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Many newer jumpers fail to fully flare their canopies during landing and get poor landings as a result.

This is a training problem and shouldn't be addressed by changing trim specs. of the canopy.

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( This is probably why short risers are not reccommended because they reduce the length of the toggle stroke)

Riser length does not determine the toggle stroke, the length of the jumpers are does.

Anytime you change equipment from what the manufacture recommends you are becoming a test jumper and hoping you are right.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Martini 0]

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Riser length does not determine the toggle stroke, the length of the jumpers are does.

I disagree. Imagine if the risers were shortened from 18" to 1". Now the length of toggle stroke is shortened (by 17") because the stroke, although ending at full arm extension in both cases, starts way above the shoulder on the 18" risers but starts at just above shoulder height on the 1" risers. An extreme example I grant you but the same principle applies to shortening the risers by 2". people with short arms have a short toggle stroke and people with short risers have a shortened toggle stroke. It appears that people with short arms and short risers are getting the double whammy but except in extreme instances it really doesn't matter because we don't really need all of our toggle stroke to fly and flare our canopies. Each canopy type and size has its own properties ( compare for instance a Stiletto to a Crossfire), different linesets, wear and age, each jumper has his own style of handling the canopy, his particular reach, risers, and probably a bunch of other stuff that contributes to the equation. All I was getting at originally is that by varying the riser length you are changing the relationship of the steering lines to the jumper's arm extension. Things could improve or get worse but they will be different even with a 2" change.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[mjosparky 3]

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All I was getting at originally is that by varying the riser length you are changing the relationship of the steering lines to the jumper's arm extension. Things could improve or get worse but they will be different even with a 2" change.

I think we are agreeing on this. I was saying the length of the risers does not change the canopy or brake trim. And you are say the shorter risers change the relationship of the jumper to the canopy.

Even a person that is 5' tall can reach the toggle on a 24" riser since the bottom of the toggle is only 16" or less above the harness attachment. To avoid the whole problem I think it would be smarter to go with the longest riser possible and still reach the slider and toggles.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[SpecialKaye 0]

In the past I had 18's that were custom made for me and I was pounding my landings on a Sabre 170. I now am using 22's again, which are kind of long, however, I can pull my slider down (I have soft links) with no real problems.

The manufacturers don't really recommend anything shorter than 20" risers.

With the 22" risers, you have 4" of flare that you didn't have with the 18".

Hope this helps.

Blue skies,
Kaye

[Lostinspace 0]

My landing weren’t bad this weekend (8 jumps). I think it is due to my loaner gear. (Being new, I may be wrong) I have my main and risers in it. I am sitting lower in the harness and getting more flare.

[Lostinspace 0]

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The manufacturers don't really recommend anything shorter than 20" risers.

Which manufacturers?

Is this true?