Students paying for reserve repack

[Travman 6]

My Dropzone the student rigs are SOS Ripcord rigs. The first step of our emergency procedures is "Discard", so if we keep our ripcord we didn't follow procedures correctly.
IMO I don't think the student should pay for handles or repack.

[Superfletch 1]

I'm with you on this one. We teach our students to throw them away, but we also tell them how much they cost US so that if they do have the presence of mind to keep them, then maybe they will. Regardless, we teach them to throw them away to keep their hands clear for anything else they might have to do. They have enough on their minds at that point. And students don't pay for repacks either.

Gary "Superfletch" Fletcher
D-26145; USPA Coach, IAD/I, AFF/I
Videographer/Photographer

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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I had a cutaway on AFF-2 with a line-over resulting in a spinning main. I might work to fix it better now, but at the time I just chopped because I couldn't control or land with that main.

Cayce, you should never try to fix a line over. Messing with slow developing malfunctions is a major killer of junior jumpers. Just chop it.
BTW the longer you wait, the more likely you will have burn dammage.

[Superman32 0]

I just took a packing class this weekend with an AFFI/rigger/world akydiving champ, and he happend to mention that they expect students to throw the handles away, as we are taught, but if he did lost the handles he would be laughed out of the DZ.
The class was great, he went as far as deploying a reserve and showing us how everything works including the cypress.

Inveniam Viam aut Faciam
I'm back biatches!

[Cayce 0]

I here you. All I meant by that is that in this incident I didn’t even un-stoe my breaks because I was afraid to make things worse. Since then I've heard that a line-over can sometimes correct itself if you do a full flare. I can't substantiate where I heard that (or possibly read it). Is that worth testing if I have the altitude?
[insert disclaimer] Yes I will ask my instructors...[/disclaimer out]

[CloudOnMyTongue 0]

When I had my cutaway, I was a student. When I got down they asked me if I was okay. Then asked me what happened. Then went hunting for the main.

I didn't have to pay a cent. I kept both of my handles, I don't think they would have minded if I didn't.

At my DZ they tell you to try and hang onto your handles as they could hit someone/thing when they drop from 1000+ feet. And on all the student rigs the reserve handles are (obviously) d-rings.

I myself saw a metal d-ring handle land in the parking lot 10 feet away from a mother pushing her baby in a stroller. I could only imagine the dent it could put in someones head.

[pash 0]

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When I had my cutaway, I was a student. When I got down they asked me if I was okay. Then asked me what happened. Then went hunting for the main.

When I had my cutaway (#25; A-License jump) I paid my packer. I wasn't a student at the time but in all seriousness, I don't get how someone is willing to argue over 5 or 10 bucks when it comes to KARMA!!

I spent about 4 hours in the woods looking for my [rented] main. Approx $1600 bucks worth. I didn't find it. I hired a guy named Wild Bill to find it. This guy grew up in the woods and he said he wouldn't charge if he didn't find it. He found EVERYTHING. I called the gear shop every day ready to lay the credit card down and pay for the main in case it was weathered or simply not found. Mary, who runs the gear shop, is about one of the most awesome / understanding people I've ever had the pleasure to deal with. In short, when Bill found the main & freebag, I paid for the inspection and we were good to go!!

Bottom line, don't be cheap. It may not be REQUIRED or IMPLIED but I say this is one area of life in which proper tipping lets you sleep (and live) at night.

Which reminds me: while shopping for my rigger's favorite bottle of spirits, a friend of mine and I are staring at the small, medium, and large bottle of saphire bombay... "Well, she *did* save your ass" my friend says.

Guess which one I went with??

jason

[relyon 0]

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I myself saw a metal d-ring handle land in the parking lot 10 feet away from a mother pushing her baby in a stroller. I could only imagine the dent it could put in someones head.

For all those in the "throw the handles" camp, this is an extremely important point. If those discarded handles cause damage to property, or injury/death to persons on the ground, there is likely going to be a whole lot of legal action following. Chances are the jumper involved, their instructor(s), the pilot(s), and the DZ are going to be named in the charge(s) and/or suit(s) that follow. Something to consider.

Bob

[huka551 0]

Doesn't that 'sign all legal rights away' waiver protect the dz? And isn't there some sort of insurance incase a skydiver or equipment hits a house, person, car, whatever?

Muff Brother 3723

[kelel01 1]

USPA's liability insurance. That's about it.

[kelpdiver 2]

jumpers sign the waiver, not spectators on the ground.

but you have to measure that very unlikely event versus the odds of bad if you spend more time holding the handle than pulling it. I'm certainly not going to worry about my cutaway pillow, if I can remember to hang onto the reserve handle, great.

[huka551 0]

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jumpers sign the waiver, not spectators on the ground.

Might not be a bad idea. I've seen jumpers crash right into parked cars. The waiver should cover their person, and personal property. Watch skydivers at your own risk!

Muff Brother 3723

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[skygod7777 0]

at my dad's old dz we never charged a student for a repack, or anyone who was renting gear. same goes for any handles lost or damage done to the gear.

later

[pilotdave 0]

Yeah...my DZ teaches to throw the cutaway handle, but hold the reserve handle since it's a lot more likely to cause an injury or damage. Throwing the cutaway handle get's it out of the way and get's the jumper's hands clear to pull the reserve.

Dave

[divnswoop 0]

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For all those in the "throw the handles" camp, this is an extremely important point. If those discarded handles cause damage to property, or injury/death to persons on the ground, there is likely going to be a whole lot of legal action following. Chances are the jumper involved, their instructor(s), the pilot(s), and the DZ are going to be named in the charge(s) and/or suit(s) that follow. Something to consider.

A body can do all this also....something to consider

The only thing that has nearly hit me on the ground was a hook knife dropped by some jumpers doing crew and they had a wrap. Apparently, the one threw his knife after he cut lines off of him.

[riggerrob 558]

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There are times with little girls and the location of their handles where at "full arms extention" they are just barely pulling 6 inches out.

Good point, another question though...was the rig even remotely close to fitting the student correctly?

It just seems to me that if a rig fits a student correctly and leaves the handles in the "normal" position and the rig is setup properly then it wouldn't cause a problem.

Thank you for taking your time to reply, I'm learning a couple of things I hadn't thought of before.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Let me tell you a story ...
Back in the good old days ... er 1983 ... our DZ had just bought a bunch of SOS rigs.
My IAD student had a main malfunction and cutaway, but stopped pulling when he "felt resistance." He returned to stable freefall until Francis Xavier Chevrier saved his sorry ass.
The de-brief included me reminding him of a 5-year-old policy published by Parachutes Australia about stripping SOS cables.

[relyon 0]

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For all those in the "throw the handles" camp, this is an extremely important point. If those discarded handles cause damage to property, or injury/death to persons on the ground, there is likely going to be a whole lot of legal action following. Chances are the jumper involved, their instructor(s), the pilot(s), and the DZ are going to be named in the charge(s) and/or suit(s) that follow. Something to consider.

A body can do all this also....something to consider

Of course it can. My point was that intentionally throwing handles could cause harm to people and property below. What's your point?

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The only thing that has nearly hit me on the ground was a hook knife dropped by some jumpers doing crew and they had a wrap. Apparently, the one threw his knife after he cut lines off of him.

I doubt the jumper threw a hook knife - dropped is a more likely explanation. Again, what's your point?

Bob

[divnswoop 0]

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A body can do all this also....something to consider

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Of course it can. My point was that intentionally throwing handles could cause harm to people and property below. What's your point?

Exactly, as I said. You brought up a good point that handles can injure somebody. So can a body that hasn't completely pulled their handles like the fatality we had not that long ago.

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The only thing that has nearly hit me on the ground was a hook knife dropped by some jumpers doing crew and they had a wrap. Apparently, the one threw his knife after he cut lines off of him.

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I doubt the jumper threw a hook knife - dropped is a more likely explanation. Again, what's your point?

Just as I said.... People can accidently drop their handles too, just like this guy 'dropped' his knife. You started your post with,"all of you in the throw your handles camp"........ I'm just offering a different view point as an instructor who teaches new people how to use their gear. Handles, bodies, and knives can all injure people on the ground. I'm more concerned with making sure my student pulls the cutaway completely AND pulls his reserve than I am concerned whether they hold on to it or not.. I also jump at a dz that is wide open without many people nearby. I'm just offering a different view....that's my point. Do you teach your students to hang on to the handles?

[relyon 0]

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Exactly, as I said. You brought up a good point that handles can injure somebody. So can a body that hasn't completely pulled their handles like the fatality we had not that long ago.

As I'm sure you know, it is possible to completely pull handles and hold on to them as well. I've done it multiple times and haven't let go of anything.

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Just as I said.... People can accidently drop their handles too, just like this guy 'dropped' his knife. You started your post with,"all of you in the throw your handles camp"........ I'm just offering a different view point as an instructor who teaches new people how to use their gear. Handles, bodies, and knives can all injure people on the ground. I'm more concerned with making sure my student pulls the cutaway completely AND pulls his reserve than I am concerned whether they hold on to it or not.. I also jump at a dz that is wide open without many people nearby. I'm just offering a different view....that's my point. Do you teach your students to hang on to the handles?

Successful EPs are clearly first, and handles often get dropped in the heat of the moment, but accidentally dropping something and intentionally throwing it are two different things. I've read replies in this thread and others where instructors are actively teaching throwing handles, including situations where the jumper has held on to them. I think that's unnecessary and a bad idea. I was taught to hold on to handles, if possible, and I gave the same advice to students when I was a S/L jumpmaster.

Bob

[livendive 8]

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I teach students to throw away each handle in turn. This helps the stripping of the cutaway cables before a reserve pull. Handles can be replaced. They cannot.

One thing that doesn't seem to have worked its way into this discussion is the difference between main and reserve handles. We're down to one student rig at my dz that activates by ripcord, but it is still my policy to teach them that if they throw away/drop a dummy ripcord or real ripcord, it'll cost 'em $15 and a case of beer.

Emergency (cutaway/reserve ripcord) handles are a completely different story. I teach all of my students to throw them away, and explain the rationale for this approach, i.e. if the handle can be thrown away, the student must have completely pulled it.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[divnswoop 0]

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As I'm sure you know, it is possible to completely pull handles and hold on to them as well. I've done it multiple times and haven't let go of anything.

So have I...I've never lost a handle yet.....But the thread is talking about students and what we teach them. Not what we do as experienced skydivers.

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but accidentally dropping something and intentionally throwing it are two different things.

They both can hurt somebody on the ground though can't they?

I want my students to have both hands on the handle they are pulling and ensuring that the cutaway handle is completely out before going for reserve. Stuff you've said in your post I agree with from my viewpoint as a skydiver....But the thread is in reference to students.

[relyon 0]

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...But the thread is talking about students and what we teach them. Not what we do as experienced skydivers.

It's been my observation that experienced skydivers do what they were taught as students.

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They both can hurt somebody on the ground though can't they?

Absolutely, and all the more reason to hold on if possible, IMO. The difference comes after property is damaged or someone gets hurt or killed, when the FAA is ready to slap a 91.13(b) or 91.15 violation, or the plaintiff's or grieving next of kin's lawyer is explaining the circumstances to a whuffo jury. Accidentally dropping something is defensible; intentionally throwing it is not. The cost of a handle and who pays for it is noise.

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I want my students to have both hands on the handle they are pulling and ensuring that the cutaway handle is completely out before going for reserve. Stuff you've said in your post I agree with from my viewpoint as a skydiver....But the thread is in reference to students.

I'm used to SOS systems for students, where two handed operation and holding on is compatible and encouraged, IMO. I'm not a fan of two handed operation of two handled systems, but that's beyond the scope here.

Bob

[divnswoop 0]

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I'm used to SOS systems for students, IMO. I'm not a fan of two handed operation of two handled systems, but that's beyond the scope here......
It's been my observation that experienced skydivers do what they were taught as students.

So do all your experienced people jump SOS?

I'm sorry for continuing this thread...I have a better ideal now who and what I'm discussing here. Your completely right. I acknowledge all your student experience and won't comment any longer.