kallend 1,819 #1 January 8, 2011 Where's Luke Skywalker when you need him? www.flightschoollist.com/aviation-articles/2011/01/magnetic-north-pole-shifts-forces-runway-closures-at-florida-airport/... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #2 January 8, 2011 There's something not being said in that story. I'm not exactly certain what it is that would take 6 working days to repaint the numbers on a runway, but something is F'ed up in that story. Further, there is no specific requirement that runway numbers actually match runway headings. It's the generally accepted practice, but certainly not a requirement. All anyone need do is look at say, LAX.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #3 January 8, 2011 DFW does the same thing. At PDX, their cross runway of 02/20 became 03/21 due to the changing mag variance. Quite a few of the airway radials I memorized over 26 years ago for my job have drifted 2-3 or more degrees over the post couple of decades. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #4 January 9, 2011 Quote DFW does the same thing. At PDX, their cross runway of 02/20 became 03/21 due to the changing mag variance. Quite a few of the airway radials I memorized over 26 years ago for my job have drifted 2-3 or more degrees over the post couple of decades. Understood. Yes, clearly some airports have changed them. That's not contested. What IS contested is what FORCED this change and why does it take so long to implement. It didn't change over night. In fact, these changes are tracked year-to-year and can be easily forecast. Last month the planes flew in and everything was fine. If nothing changed, it wouldn't be raining aluminum. You mention radials changing 2 or 3 degrees over decades. Completely understandable. Runways, as you're aware, are only vaguely named to the nearest 10° magnetic heading and even then there's no actual requirement to do so. Here, look at this and explain the numbering of runways 25L&R and 24L&R. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=lax&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Los+Angeles+International+Airport+(LAX),+1+World+Way,+Los+Angeles,+California+90045&ll=33.94279,-118.407984&spn=0.02307,0.037551&t=h&z=15 These runways are all parallel yet numbered differently and nobody is confused by the minor differences. In fact, it makes it easier. What I'm saying is . . . there's more to the story than we're being told. Something like the money had been allocated to the state and was going to be forfeited if not used so the project was rushed through at the last minute. That might explain why the airport wouldn't have all the signs and associated whatnot in place for an overnight change rather than the weeklong shutdown.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #5 January 9, 2011 Quote Quote DFW does the same thing. At PDX, their cross runway of 02/20 became 03/21 due to the changing mag variance. Quite a few of the airway radials I memorized over 26 years ago for my job have drifted 2-3 or more degrees over the post couple of decades. Understood. Yes, clearly some airports have changed them. That's not contested. What IS contested is what FORCED this change and why does it take so long to implement. It didn't change over night. In fact, these changes are tracked year-to-year and can be easily forecast. Last month the planes flew in and everything was fine. If nothing changed, it wouldn't be raining aluminum. You mention radials changing 2 or 3 degrees over decades. Completely understandable. Runways, as you're aware, are only vaguely named to the nearest 10° magnetic heading and even then there's no actual requirement to do so. Here, look at this and explain the numbering of runways 25L&R and 24L&R. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=lax&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Los+Angeles+International+Airport+(LAX),+1+World+Way,+Los+Angeles,+California+90045&ll=33.94279,-118.407984&spn=0.02307,0.037551&t=h&z=15 These runways are all parallel yet numbered differently and nobody is confused by the minor differences. In fact, it makes it easier. What I'm saying is . . . there's more to the story than we're being told. Something like the money had been allocated to the state and was going to be forfeited if not used so the project was rushed through at the last minute. That might explain why the airport wouldn't have all the signs and associated whatnot in place for an overnight change rather than the weeklong shutdown. I'm not claiming to be an authority on naming runways, I understand the number/letter scheme, but to your point: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/188249/ It does seem like there's quite a bit of leeway for airports to handle this. I understand your point about a week long shut down of a runway when if this could be forecast, the change could be made in a day or two (at least enough time to let the paint dry...). I'd have to agree with you...something's afoot...and it probably is a last minute funding thing or, maybe the contractor that's doing the work was able to provide a value-add proposal or something...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #6 January 9, 2011 This is dumb. Just give all the runways girls' names and be done with it. "Ah, Tower, this is Bash 2-7, on final for a deep plunge into the middle of Betty." "Rrroger, 2-7; advise when your wheels-down has climaxed." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #7 January 9, 2011 Quote There's something not being said in that story. I'm not exactly certain what it is that would take 6 working days to repaint the numbers on a runway, but something is F'ed up in that story. Never had Unions do work for ya? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
squirrel 0 #8 January 9, 2011 i dont have a compass on my "airplane" ________________________________ Where is Darwin when you need him? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,229 #9 January 10, 2011 John, If memory serves, doesn't the change in magnetic north have significantly more effect in Florida than anywhere else; where a couple of degrees can mean several miles of variance?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #10 January 10, 2011 Just googled some stuff. Says the pole is moving towards Russia at an accelerating rate, having moved more in the past 15 years than the past 50! I would say that simple geometry would indicate the change is greater in locations farther North and farther West or East of 93 degrees West. Alaska and Eastern Canada would be good examples. Imagine if you were to "watch" the pole move from those locations. It's motion would appear to be moving at right angles to your line of sight, causing the most change in magnetic variance, Locations farther South and closer to the "0 declination" line would have see the pole moving away some, but in more of a receding motion, and not as much apparent motion to one side or the other. This would mean less change in declination. Did any of that make sense?So, no, I don't believe there's anything special about Florida in that regard. But even slow change, after long enough periods, is noticeable, and may require repainting a few runways. http://www.compassdude.com/compass-declination.shtml Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,229 #11 January 10, 2011 Was doing some research while you were responding and found the following: http://www.bermuda-triangle.org/html/true_north_magnetic_north_.html which would indicate your premise is true. More effect the more west one goes.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalslug 31 #12 January 10, 2011 QuoteThis is dumb. Just give all the runways girls' names and be done with it. "Ah, Tower, this is Bash 2-7, on final for a deep plunge into the middle of Betty." "Rrroger, 2-7; advise when your wheels-down has climaxed." Well, each runway usually has two names (numbers) depending on which end you're coming in... *cough*... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydave103 0 #13 January 10, 2011 Quote Just googled some stuff. Says the pole is moving towards Russia at an accelerating rate, having moved more in the past 15 years than the past 50! I wonder if the fall of communism had anything to do with it? or it could be the amount of people in China and India has tilted the globe and is affecting the mag poles. LifeshouldNOTbeajourneytothegravewithawellpreservedbody,buttskidinsideways,cigarinone hand,martiniintheother,bodythoroughlyused upandscreaming:"WOO HOO!! What a ride!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 14 #14 January 10, 2011 Quote Well, each runway usually has two names (numbers) depending on which end you're coming in... *cough*... So, you're saying that Betty could be Veronica if approached from the other end ? _____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #15 January 10, 2011 Quote Just googled some stuff. Says the pole is moving towards Russia at an accelerating rate, having moved more in the past 15 years than the past 50! I would say that simple geometry would indicate the change is greater in locations farther North and farther West or East of 93 degrees West. Alaska and Eastern Canada would be good examples. Imagine if you were to "watch" the pole move from those locations. It's motion would appear to be moving at right angles to your line of sight, causing the most change in magnetic variance, Locations farther South and closer to the "0 declination" line would have see the pole moving away some, but in more of a receding motion, and not as much apparent motion to one side or the other. This would mean less change in declination. Did any of that make sense?So, no, I don't believe there's anything special about Florida in that regard. But even slow change, after long enough periods, is noticeable, and may require repainting a few runways. http://www.compassdude.com/compass-declination.shtml Thanks, you saved me a bunch of typing John. If there are two professions that would be able to discuss this at great detail it would be yours and the Land Surveyor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #16 January 10, 2011 Its all the steel cased ammo in Russia and China being amassed, therefore creating a pull in the magnetic field. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #17 January 10, 2011 If they were in a 69, it would not matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #18 January 10, 2011 No,,its caused by removing all the petroleum...we are creating voids and the pole no longer has a firm foundation, kind of like a loose tooth. Sell your gear....we're all fooked.... smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #19 January 10, 2011 Quote Well, each runway usually has two names (numbers) depending on which end you're coming in... *cough*... Well now, that would be called a "back course" approach. Military aircraft would want to initial from the High Penetration Fix. That usually requires prior approval and coordination before commencing that approach. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #20 January 10, 2011 Quote If there are two professions that would be able to discuss this at great detail it would be yours and the Land Surveyor. Our radar scopes are set up with straight up being true North. However, all of our references and headings are magnetic, which is ~20 degrees right of True. I've been adjusting for it for so long, it's unconscious, but it takes a while to get our trainees dialed in."Okay, now show me which way is North again." "No, that's NNW." "No, North is over here," Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
