Why aren't Riggers charging more for hard to pack reserves?

[KevinMcGuire 0]

Yea what ever...

[KevinMcGuire 0]

Many moons ago when I was just a rigglet, I was learning how to pack reserves on my own rig.

Unfortunaltly for me it was a racer and my instructor was not well versed in packing them. Basically, he didn’t know shit about them and neither did I.
As you can imagine, I was not having a good time when in frustration, I literally drop kicked my rig across the hanger and stomped off in an huff to the café for a bite.

While in the café, I sat muttering under my breath about John Sherman this and John Sherman that and that piece of crap the racer blah blah blah.

I must have been louder than I realized because right then Fred Bowen (some guy from way back) walked up to me and said, “Listen kid. If you let that rig get under your skin now, it will own you for the rest of your career. That rig has a secret just like they all do and all you have to do is find it”.

Looking back now I can honestly say that was probably the best rigging advice I have ever heard.

[teason 0]

While I agree with JP that it's unfair to make a blanket statement, I refuse to charge a customer extra because I'm not familiar with a rig. The way I see it, if the rig is hard for me to pack, then I need more practice or familiarization. I once spent five hours packing and repacking a rig. I wasn't happy with how well it looked. I studied the manual, got the tricks down and in the end, I packed it beautifully.

It would not be right to have slammed it in half assed and then blamed the rig for looking bad.

It also would not have been right to charge the customer extra because of my ignorance of the rig.

I look forward to packing unfamiliar rigs, it gives me a chance to broaden my scope and be a better rigger. I'm not going to charge the customer for my education.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[diablopilot 2]

Nice.


Why do people look upon riggers as someone who must perform charity?


If the lot of skydivers would get off their asses and get fucking rigging tickets or look into what it really takes to beable to do the job right, maybe, just maybe they'd have some understanding of things.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[KevinMcGuire 0]

[

Bull. They are charging you more because they feel it is worth it. I know a rigger who can pack "X" brand rig beautifuly. I mean they look great. He doesn't like them, their construction, or the way they pack. So he tells people this and says "I really don't want to pack that."

O.K lets analyze this statement. Rigger "A" doesn't like the construction or some other characteristic of a certain rig but he'll pack it anyway for a greater price
Does the rigger some how feel "X" rig is less safe and that the customers life is in jeopardy or has he just come to an unsupported opinion about the rig and there for the customer should now have to pay extra? Sorry but I don't see alot of ethics in that?

If the system doesn't require any more time or materials to pack than it does another, and no system out there really does, even racers, then you are really just screwing your customer because you can.
No ethics there either wouldn't you agree?

Whlie many people think that we as riggers are out there simply to do our good deed for humanity and as such they expect to pay us chump change for our efforts, this does not give us the right to gouge them simply because they have a limited idea about what we do or how long it took to get good at it.
That kind of animosity between service provider and customer is not sustainable and will break down sooner than later.

[KevinMcGuire 0]

Lets try it one more way.
A mechanic has two different makes of vehicles in his garage, a Chevy and Ford. He will be performing the same repair on each Vehicle. The parts needed for both vehicles cost the same and both will take the same amount of time to work on but, because the mechanic is a Ford man, he is going to charge the customer who owns the Chevy more money.

Business practices like this will soon put that mechanic out of business

[Pararigger 0]

I charge the same amount for every rig, unless you bring it to me Sat. morning at 8 am and want to jump by 9 am.
I don't have a ton of experience but I always look forward to a new challenge. Plus it helps that I work under a master rigger too.

Have you thanked the rigger that saved your life!
IAD-I, AFF-I, Coach, MFFI566

[nicknitro71 0]

JP,

Let's say you are an AFF instructor. You have two students with 10 jumps. One is as natural as it gets, flies stabe, and makes your work in the air and on the ground fast and easy. The other one should have picked up glofing instead and needs a lot of TLC and you end up spending more time and energy with him. According to your logic you should charge more fo the weak student because you will use more energy and probably time.

Just an analogy.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[KevinMcGuire 0]

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JP,

Let's say you are an AFF instructor. You have two students with 10 jumps. One is as natural as it gets, flies stabe, and makes your work in the air and on the ground fast and easy. The other one should have picked up glofing instead and needs a lot of TLC and you end up spending more time and energy with him. According to your logic you should charge more fo the weak student because you will use more energy and probably time.

Just an analogy.

Yea, but a good one.

[riggerrob 558]

While many people think that we as riggers are out there simply to do our good deed for humanity and as such they expect to pay us chump change for our efforts, this does not give us the right to gouge them simply because they have a limited idea about what we do or how long it took to get good at it.
That kind of animosity between service provider and customer is not sustainable and will break down sooner than later.

[riggerrob 558]

If all the pieces of a puzzle are present and you still can't figure it out, is it the puzzles fault?
It is no different with rigging.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Good point.
Every rig is a puzzle.
The problem is that not all the parts/tricks are mentioned in the packing manual.
For example, I hated packing Racers until a German rigger suggested ghost loops. Unfortunately it took the Racer factory another decade before they started giving out free ghost loops.

[diablopilot 2]

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Does the rigger some how feel "X" rig is less safe and that the customers life is in jeopardy

No.

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or has he just come to an unsupported opinion about the rig

It is a supported opinion. His.

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there for the customer should now have to pay extra?

It's that riggers business. Is it ethical that you pay more for a can of Coke, vs. a can or the supermarket brand soda?

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this does not give us the right to gouge them simply because they have a limited idea about what we do or how long it took to get good at it.

Sure it does. I know several people with rigging tickets who don't work as riggers. When that odd person is out of date by 2 days on Saturday morning and the loft is busy, they beg and beg, and beg these people to pack them up. These people got their ticket to work on their own gear, they worked as riggers for a while, and don't want to do it anymore. Is it wrong that they will charge more for a Saturday morning pack job that the loft. when the only other option it the jumper staying on the ground? I don't think so.

You can pick 2 of the following but not all three.
Inexpensive.
Quality.
Speed.

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That kind of animosity between service provider and customer is not sustainable and will break down sooner than later.

The point is the people above don't care, they are not running businesses, or if they are, they are for specific people/situations. When asked to run their business in another way, they are now being slamed for it? I don't thinks so.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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Just an analogy.

A pretty poor one.

First of all the AFF instructor usually doesn't own the business, and can't set the rates. It's more frequent that riggers do.

Second, poor students do pay more. They do more repeatitive levels.

Third, you are assuming that a rigger WANTS to pack every rig on the market, AND the ones charging more for specific types don't have the skill to pack them.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Praetorian 1]

Ethics have NOTING to do with THIS aspect of a market economy. DONT LIKE THE PRICE GO ELSEWHERE. Unethical would be doing the packjob for a quoted price and then demanding more money before handing the rig back. Or in some fantacy loft in the sky charging more because the flying loft is gonna crash and the jumper has no choice but to pay or die. The comment about the ford mechanic charging more for the chevy is right on.. its not gonna put you outta biz its gonna get you a rep as a FORD SPECIALIST, There is nothing wrong with charging the same rate for all rigs even though some are REALLY REALLY eazy for you to pack. Unethical would be doing a shitty job on one kind of reserve because your bad at it ..but thankfully I don't know a rigger that would do that. Ethics get dragged into TOO MANY disscussions. Ask about Fair (and then clarify, fair to customer, rigger or both?) Ask about good biz practice, proffit rep, rigger's interiest in staying in the sport. Jumpers interiest in working with that rigger again etc. But as I said at the top before I went off Ethics got Nothing to do with this discussion

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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If the lot of skydivers would get off their asses and get fucking rigging tickets or look into what it really takes to beable to do the job right, maybe, just maybe they'd have some understanding of things.

I've seen sevaeral that wanted to and started, but when they realized how much work and time it is, they quit.

Some rigs are harder than others to pack. That is a fact. Rigs are different and some are going to be harder than others. Riggers can compensate by packing a lot of them and learning tricks to make them easier, but that doesn't mean the rig is easier, just easier for that rigger. Just like some 4-way blocks are harder than others. A team can learn better ways and tricks to dong the block easier, but it remains that some blocks are harder than others.

I don't charge any different for different rigs, but I don't think that riggers that do are wrong.

Derek

[fcajump 153]

While I don't specifically charge differently between sport rigs, I do charge differently between sport and pilot rigs. And as a part time rigger I have as much work as I want and charge what the market will bear.

I have no problem with those who charge what they want for their work. (In this area we have no shortage of riggers "next door") They learned the skill and will either charge correctly or loose business. Simple as that.

I do have a problem with riggers that undercut the market either because they don't place value in their own time, or because they are cheap for cheap work. But I also see this as MY problem as long as the other guy's work is not specifically unsafe (just might not be something I would put my seal on...)

WARNING - THE FOLLOWING IS A JOKE:
There is no need to worry about a tight packjob, if you have a customer that buys mis-matched gear, just trim off anything that doesn't fit...
THE PRECEDING WAS A (weak) ATTEMPT AT HUMOR. We now return you to your regularly scheduled endless and unresolvable debate.

JW

PS - learned just to work on my own gear. When asked, I set my prices high. Consequently I have more work than I have time for... time to raise my prices I guess.

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[diablopilot 2]

How nice. Some one else who realizes that life ain't fair.....it's just life.



Kudos to you man......

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[riggerrob 558]

We riggers do not charge extra for repacking difficult rigs because we are such nice guys.
Either that or we are tired of listening to skydivers whine about subjects that they do not understand.
Perhaps I should raise my prices - across the board - as I have far more rigging than one man can handle ... and my boss just promised that I would repair another batch of Student Javelins with frayed MLWs.
Argh!
Time to put down the keyboard and pick up the sewing machine.

[diablopilot 2]

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Perhaps I should raise my prices - across the board -

Exactly. Would anyone be complaining if riggers were advetising "discount for brand "X" rig, because I like them?"

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,393]

>Perhaps I should raise my prices - across the board - as I have far
>more rigging than one man can handle .

Amy did that. She used to charge $20 for main inspect/repack, and she was getting sick of packing mains. So she raised the price. People heard about that and thought "wow, she must be really thorough" and MORE people wanted main inspections/repacks. So beware! Things don't always have the effect you think they will.

[freeflycracker 0]

When I was shopping for reserves my rigger said if I buy product x he'd charge an extra couple bucks cuz it's a pain in the ass. I didnt buy product x but I wouldnt have had a problem paying extra if I did.

I have to disagree with the Ford/Chevy thing. If I change the belt(or whatever) on the Ford, it might be straight forward and take 15 minutes. On the other hand. The Chevy might require me to drop the radiator, remove the alternator etc. to do the same operation. They are not equal. Hell, a Ford pickup with a V6 might take half as long as one with a turbo diesel.

If my rigger raised his prices Id pay it. Would I pay half that to someone that IMO wasnt as good. Not a chance.

[mjosparky 3]

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She used to charge $20 for main inspect/repack, and she was getting sick of packing mains.

As a rigger, she is held to the same standard on the main as she is on a reserve. She should charge the same for both. I do.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Pablito 0]

Kevin Beautifull words, Its all a puzzle.
Thanks for teaching me that long time ago (Remember at the Holiday boogie 3 years Ago)
Since then I've learned lots, but the more that i learned the more I realized the less that I know.
One of the tricks that I learned is to see as many riggers do their job, and I learned new ways to see the puzzle, when I do repairs is the same.
But for pack jobs I will believe that we should charge more for the repacks that require more tools, cause that is more tools we need to keep in mind. (Just kidding)

"If you don't overcome your fears they will overcome you first"
Shady Monkey/6Segundos Rodriguez/AKA Pablito

[livendive 8]

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A rigger who charges more to pack a Racer or Refelx for instance is in my eyes unethical.

What about a rigger who simply refuses to pack them? I have a friend who simply won't pack Racers...those customers get sent elsewhere.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[councilman24 36]

There are a number of rigs I won't pack, now and over the years. Right now, I won't pack Racers because its been almost 15 years since I did one. I'm not current, and considering that there is at most one or two racers on my DZ it's not worth it to me to become current. I just won't provide a good service. I also won't pack military surplus pilot rigs. While still airworthy and the designs have saves thousands of lives, they are not state of the art in reliability. I simply choose not to put my name on them and gladly point people in the direction of a rigger who will.

If I wouldn't wear it and want to use it, I probably don't want my name on it. My choice.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE