Blue skies Mag with editor

[larakiyomi 0]

Quote

What I had the biggest problem with was you saying that their unfair business practices are "alleged". I think after you have lost a lawsuit it is not "alleged" anymore - it is a fact.

That's a good point, and honestly, it's just me trying to be fair while calling them a douchebag in the same breath.

Blue Skies Mag

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I think we're starting to see a reaction to all the hate directed at the Skyride phenomenon. They are now being seen as the underdog, someone who is continually attacked by the mainstream, politically correct crowd. And justified or not, some people are starting to defend them from the howling pack.

I don't necessarily see people actively defending Skyride. I see it more that the debate has devolved such that anyone who is not a strident and emotional detractor of Skyride is now viewed as a supporter/defender ("If you don't toe the party line, you're against us"). I've seen that rhetorical style in other circumstances and I'm not fan wherever it appears.

This is kind of where I see it going, too. I know why SkyRide is BAD, I just want to know why they're the WORST, which is how people treat them. I agree that they're BAD and I'm all for steps to shut them down. Now, we sent support to a boogie that's tangentially theirs - you can make the case that that action did the opposite of what I just said I'm all for, and I'll understand. I understand the argument for us being wrong, and I see its merit. I just see it otherwise - but can still respect that you see things differently.

My question is really this, again - how is SkyRide WORSE than a drop zone that knowingly disregards basic airplane maintenance, which results in skydivers dying? How is SkyRide WORSE than a drop zone built on drug money? How is SkyRide WORSE than a manufacturer that doesn't issue timely safety bulletins when it knows that SB could save lives? How is SkyRide the WORST?

Why is it so cool to hate SkyRide with such passion, but not these other entities? Why a campaign to get people to unsubscribe from us, but not a campaign to stop jumping at unsafe drop zones? I know there are people who won't jump at certain DZs, but it's not the huge lynch mob that I see when it comes to SkyRide. And really, I really want to know what it is that gets people so incredibly heated about this.

With regards to our business practice, Spence, I don't mean to give the impression that it's our way or the highway. If you tell us you want more boogie articles, we're sure as shit going to print more boogie articles. You want less boogie articles? You got it. We're never going to say we believe in something just because we think you'll give us your money if we say it, though. I don't see that as being anti-customer or ranting, just being someone I don't mind looking in the mirror at everyday.

Thanks for all the support, too, I love that a reasonable, level-headed conversation is taking place in bonfire :) And, we really do want articles, letters and opinion pieces from everyone. We're failing if we personally agree with everything we print.

I don't see the point in trying to put all things wrong in some kind of hierarchy but to address your post...

First you have to realize you are dealing with a small group of people here that would lump you(the magazine) into the same group with Skyride. Too small a group,IMO, to get on the internet in the defensive mode you were in.

Now to answer your question, They are worst because not only do they effect all of us but they also effect the way the general public sees the skydiving industry. I think if you would have the pleasure of talking to just a few of the people that have been screwed by they you would see the big picture. I've been around since almost day one of this crap. You wouldn't believe some of the stories I could tell you.

The reason you don't have huge campaigns against some of the other things you mentioned is safety issues are localized and the majority of the people will never be effected.

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I think we're starting to see a reaction to all the hate directed at the Skyride phenomenon. They are now being seen as the underdog, someone who is continually attacked by the mainstream, politically correct crowd. And justified or not, some people are starting to defend them from the howling pack.

I don't necessarily see people actively defending Skyride. I see it more that the debate has devolved such that anyone who is not a strident and emotional detractor of Skyride is now viewed as a supporter/defender ("If you don't toe the party line, you're against us"). I've seen that rhetorical style in other circumstances and I'm not fan wherever it appears.

This is kind of where I see it going, too. I know why SkyRide is BAD, I just want to know why they're the WORST, which is how people treat them. I agree that they're BAD and I'm all for steps to shut them down. Now, we sent support to a boogie that's tangentially theirs - you can make the case that that action did the opposite of what I just said I'm all for, and I'll understand. I understand the argument for us being wrong, and I see its merit. I just see it otherwise - but can still respect that you see things differently.

My question is really this, again - how is SkyRide WORSE than a drop zone that knowingly disregards basic airplane maintenance, which results in skydivers dying? How is SkyRide WORSE than a drop zone built on drug money? How is SkyRide WORSE than a manufacturer that doesn't issue timely safety bulletins when it knows that SB could save lives? How is SkyRide the WORST?

Why is it so cool to hate SkyRide with such passion, but not these other entities? Why a campaign to get people to unsubscribe from us, but not a campaign to stop jumping at unsafe drop zones? I know there are people who won't jump at certain DZs, but it's not the huge lynch mob that I see when it comes to SkyRide. And really, I really want to know what it is that gets people so incredibly heated about this.

With regards to our business practice, Spence, I don't mean to give the impression that it's our way or the highway. If you tell us you want more boogie articles, we're sure as shit going to print more boogie articles. You want less boogie articles? You got it. We're never going to say we believe in something just because we think you'll give us your money if we say it, though. I don't see that as being anti-customer or ranting, just being someone I don't mind looking in the mirror at everyday.

Thanks for all the support, too, I love that a reasonable, level-headed conversation is taking place in bonfire :) And, we really do want articles, letters and opinion pieces from everyone. We're failing if we personally agree with everything we print.

Whoa!

This is an incredible response.

Why don't you ask "Who is worse Bernie Madoff or Jared Loughner?"
or perhaps "Who is worse Seung-Hui Cho or Jefferey Skilling?"

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[larakiyomi 0]

Quote

Whoa!

This is an incredible response.

Why don't you ask "Who is worse Bernie Madoff or Jared Loughner?"
or perhaps "Who is worse Seung-Hui Cho or Jefferey Skilling?"

.

And maybe that's just it - I don't see SkyRide as being on par with murderers. Fraud, deception and deceit, yes. Murder, no.

Blue Skies Mag

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Quote

Quote

Whoa!

This is an incredible response.

Why don't you ask "Who is worse Bernie Madoff or Jared Loughner?"
or perhaps "Who is worse Seung-Hui Cho or Jefferey Skilling?"

.

And maybe that's just it - I don't see SkyRide as being on par with murderers. Fraud, deception and deceit, yes. Murder, no.

I've not seen anyone try to equate them to murderers. I think you are now stretching things a bit to try to drive your point home. Careful or you are going to become like those you disagree with.

[billvon 2,396]

>I've not seen anyone try to equate them to murderers.

She was replying to Jan Meyer, who referenced the murderer Jared Loughner.

[larakiyomi 0]

Quote

Whoa!

This is an incredible response.

Why don't you ask "Who is worse Bernie Madoff or Jared Loughner?"
or perhaps "Who is worse Seung-Hui Cho or Jefferey Skilling?"

.

And Jan, I'm still psyched for your article! We're ready to run anything you come up with, whenever you are.

Blue Skies Mag

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Quote

>I've not seen anyone try to equate them to murderers.

She was replying to Jan Meyer, who referenced the murderer Jared Loughner.

I don't think Jan tried to put Skyride into the same categories as the people she mentioned.

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

>I've not seen anyone try to equate them to murderers.

She was replying to Jan Meyer, who referenced the murderer Jared Loughner.

Unfair Bill.
I did not equate SR to murderers. Lara made mention of 'a drop zone that knowingly disregards basic airplane maintenance, which results in skydivers dying' and compared them to the SR issue.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[larakiyomi 0]

Quote

Quote

>I've not seen anyone try to equate them to murderers.

She was replying to Jan Meyer, who referenced the murderer Jared Loughner.

Unfair Bill.
I did not equate SR to murderers. Lara made mention of 'a drop zone that knowingly disregards basic airplane maintenance, which results in skydivers dying' and compared them to the SR issue.

.

Ah, I think I missed your point then, Jan. I thought you were equating SkyRide to killers and asking why one killer (and Bernie Madoff, thrown in for good measure) was worse than another. Must back away from the computer when falling asleep.

Spence brought up a good point, though, that I hadn't considered - that safety violations are normally considered a regional problem. Maybe my biggest misunderstanding is that those things, like aircraft maintenance, become the same blight on the sport - worse, in my opinion - than SkyRide. I'm all for the community uprising to bring SkyRide down; I think it was due to a lot of people's good, hard work that they are smaller and less 'powerful' than they were a few years ago. Why is that same "let's get 'em" mentality not applied to things like aircraft maintenance? Like boycotting a dz that does seriously unsafe things?

Blue Skies Mag

[CSpenceFLY 1]

The same reason Ben & Cary had no trouble finding people to staff their DZs and their call centers. I'll let you put a label on those people.

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Quote

Quote

>I've not seen anyone try to equate them to murderers.

She was replying to Jan Meyer, who referenced the murderer Jared Loughner.

Unfair Bill.
I did not equate SR to murderers. Lara made mention of 'a drop zone that knowingly disregards basic airplane maintenance, which results in skydivers dying' and compared them to the SR issue.

.

Ah, I think I missed your point then, Jan. I thought you were equating SkyRide to killers and asking why one killer (and Bernie Madoff, thrown in for good measure) was worse than another. Must back away from the computer when falling asleep.

Spence brought up a good point, though, that I hadn't considered - that safety violations are normally considered a regional problem. Maybe my biggest misunderstanding is that those things, like aircraft maintenance, become the same blight on the sport - worse, in my opinion - than SkyRide. I'm all for the community uprising to bring SkyRide down; I think it was due to a lot of people's good, hard work that they are smaller and less 'powerful' than they were a few years ago. Why is that same "let's get 'em" mentality not applied to things like aircraft maintenance? Like boycotting a dz that does seriously unsafe things?

Chris' point about the sphere of influence of issues is good and valid.
SR's influence is the entire skydiving industry where there are a plethora of examples.
A local DZ that cheats the FARs is a local issue that most jumpers do not have information about.

Both issues are news worthy.
Discounting one issue because 'Well, they have not killed anyone.' is stupid.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Bertt 0]

Let me help you with a moral concept you seem to be having trouble with. I'm versatile enough to disapprove of several things that are bad without the need to order them according to which is worst. I've read one issue of your magazine and I was not greatly impressed. Today, I'm less impressed. I did like the pic of the topless babes, but if you're going for edgy, you're not there yet.
Have a nice day.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[larakiyomi 0]

Quote

Chris' point about the sphere of influence of issues is good and valid.
SR's influence is the entire skydiving industry where there are a plethora of examples.
A local DZ that cheats the FARs is a local issue that most jumpers do not have information about.

Both issues are news worthy.
Discounting one issue because 'Well, they have not killed anyone.' is stupid.

.

It is stupid, but I'm not discounting either issue. In case it's not super clear, I'm doing my damndest to get someone, anyone to write an article, letter or op/ed for our magazine about why we're wrong, why SkyRide deserves to be the one cause we all get behind to fight against, why we need to keep fighting the good fight, why we should boycott every last ounce of SkyRide anything. Anyone? Please? Bueller? [email protected]

I agree with you all that SkyRide is something we should fight against. Where I get lost is when it appears to me - and I could be totally wrong, naive, silly, whatever - that if you don't fight hard enough (i.e., with every fiber of your being) that you're just as bad as they are. And further, although I did greatly (and likely wrongly) exaggerate my point, why it's only SkyRide that we as a community have coalesced to get rid of, when there are a lot of other bad elements in our sport.

Blue Skies Mag

[larakiyomi 0]

Quote

Let me help you with a moral concept you seem to be having trouble with. I'm versatile enough to disapprove of several things that are bad without the need to order them according to which is worst. I've read one issue of your magazine and I was not greatly impressed. Today, I'm less impressed. I did like the pic of the topless babes, but if you're going for edgy, you're not there yet.
Have a nice day.

Yeah, I made my point poorly, but it's my impression that other people are putting SkyRide at the very tippy top of the naughty list and I don't understand why.

Anyway, thanks for checking the magazine out before judging, I truly do appreciate that. Sorry we're not the mag for you yet, but we're still growing, so check back in a few years. Maybe we'll have things better figured out. (Oh good Lord I hope we do!)

Blue Skies Mag

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Quote

Quote

Chris' point about the sphere of influence of issues is good and valid.
SR's influence is the entire skydiving industry where there are a plethora of examples.
A local DZ that cheats the FARs is a local issue that most jumpers do not have information about.

Both issues are news worthy.
Discounting one issue because 'Well, they have not killed anyone.' is stupid.

.

It is stupid, but I'm not discounting either issue. In case it's not super clear, I'm doing my damndest to get someone, anyone to write an article, letter or op/ed for our magazine about why we're wrong, why SkyRide deserves to be the one cause we all get behind to fight against, why we need to keep fighting the good fight, why we should boycott every last ounce of SkyRide anything. Anyone? Please? Bueller? [email protected]

I agree with you all that SkyRide is something we should fight against. Where I get lost is when it appears to me - and I could be totally wrong, naive, silly, whatever - that if you don't fight hard enough (i.e., with every fiber of your being) that you're just as bad as they are. And further, although I did greatly (and likely wrongly) exaggerate my point, why it's only SkyRide that we as a community have coalesced to get rid of, when there are a lot of other bad elements in our sport.

This is where you are going wrong. You are trying to define this using the view point of a very small portion of our population. The majority of skydivers don't feel that way. However, just because you don't see it doesn't make those people wrong.

Kind of like, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

I personally don't hold anything against the fun jumper at these DZs. It sux that they get the brunt end of what Ben,Cary and the rest of the socially crippled mouth breathers have done. Having said that, the minute they know about all of this and witness the scam in progress, I cease to feel anything but contempt for them.

Now the staffers and the DZOs that accept their certificates, that's another story.

[Nutz 0]

Amen Spence, you are a much better spokesperson than I could ever be. I could tell you stories as well, the mod's don't want me to on here.
I think anyone that works for them and jumps at their dz's are complicit, ie they approve of their business practices. It is impracticle to not jump at a dz that accepts their certificates but you can lobby the dzo to stop. He is complicit too.

Edited for spelling

Edit Anyone who sponsors one of their boogies is complicit as well. It doesn't matter what you say, what you do reveals your true feelings.

"Don't! Get! Eliminated!"

[Nutz 0]

You know, I have been thinking. I don't think I could write a good response because I am too close to the issue, ie I have been personally affected by them. I think that is also what makes them the worst, because so many have been personally affected by them. There have been some pretty big names in the sport that have been bent over by them. They are a national problem as well, which makes them worse. Some of the things I would say would probably be considered slanderous which is why the mods protect me from myself on here I think.
Anyway, I was just thinking.

"Don't! Get! Eliminated!"

[Kolla 0]

tap tap... this thing on? Can you hear me?

Well dropzone.com - I'd like to formally apologize for having gotten so many undies in a wad, because this whole thing is my doing.
I'm the one that took the call from the organizer of the boogie and I am the one that said "yeah, you know what, we will support your event by donating a t shirt and a year subscription to the raffle".

Red flags did go up, and I will admit that I considered saying "thanks but no thanks". Blaming the small budget we have for that kind of stuff. It would have been the way out, and I think the organizer would have totally understood. Both what I said and what I didn't want to say out loud. It just wouldn't have been right. I don't want to punish the people that jump there (and have limited options for going elsewhere) for the sins of the fathers, if you will. Not supporting the boogie wouldn't have hurt skyride in any way, but it would have made the boogie a little less tasty, because that SkyGod t shirt I'm sending is damn fine.

Anyhow. For my personal feelings on skyride owners: court proven crooks, and a blight on the sport. Several sports actually. I believe karma and the law will eventually get them, but for some reason karma is taking it's sweet time.
I stil like to support jumpers that are in it for the love of the sport. Especially those that are willing to give up their own time and money to help other jumpers out in a pay-it-forward style. And who knows, maybe this thread will inspire someone in TN to open up a dropzone. Some poster early on said he had an otter he could bring during the boogie weekend... maybe that guy could look into setting up shop on a permanent basis :)

Oh and for those that suggested that skyride had paid us money.... hah! Nope, not a dime. No sexual favors were traded either, as alluded to by some posters.

So there you have it. I'm glad to see opinions expressed and sides debated, it does us good. Oh, and if someone would like to write up an article on SkyRide, we for sure would love to print it. See Lara for details.

Blue Skies Magazine

[Remster 24]

Quote

No sexual favors were traded either, as alluded to by some posters.

Does that mean this type of bartering is not possible in the future either?

Remster

[Kolla 0]

Not for skyride no.

For other applicants, we reserve the right to make decisions on a case by case basis. Applicants will be reviewed in any order we damn well please, but generally hottest first.

Blue Skies Magazine

[skybytch 259]

Quote

Why is that same "let's get 'em" mentality not applied to things like aircraft maintenance? Like boycotting a dz that does seriously unsafe things?

Ooohhh, look, it's the pink elephant in the California living room!

Why would anyone boycott a dz that offers the cheapest lift tickets anywhere? Yeah, the FAA says the aircraft weren't maintained, but what the hell do they know? USPA gave the DZO a safety award, how could it possibly be unsafe to jump there? Not to mention the awesome AFF program they run with non-rated "instructors" (despite the claim on the website that their instructors have USPA ratings) that turns out jumpers who are still having to pull out of spins.

In this case it's not simply a regional issue, as jumpers come from around the world to "save money" jumping there.

The bottom line is that very few people care enough to boycott anything if doing so will cost them more money. Most skydivers think about safety when they choose a dz to jump at like teenagers think about unwanted pregnancy when they decide to bump uglies - it won't happen to me...

[davelepka 4]

Quote

I don't want to punish the people that jump there (and have limited options for going elsewhere) for the sins of the fathers, if you will.

We have a winner.

Not everyone has multiple DZs to choose from. Not everyone can afford (time or money) to travel several hours to another DZ to be able to jump.

Some people were already jumping and working at DZ that eventaully started to accept Skyride certs (becasue if we all recall, the choice was either do it, or the guy down the street will).

There are a small handful of people who should be held accountable for the actions of Skyride. Ben and Cary of course, and a handful of their 'right hand men', but aside from that, the vast majority of jumpers who jump or work at a Skyride owned or Skyride affiliated DZ are simply victims of circumstance.

We're not buying cheeseburgers here. There isn't a row of DZs at every freeway exit ready to service your every need. When a virus like Skyride gets itself embedded into the industry, it becomes very hard not be connected in some way to Skyride within a few degrees of seperation.

If anyone thinks that boycotting a magazine is going to make a difference, more power to them, but to then turn around and condemn anyone remotely connected to Skyride who's only avenue to sever the connection would be to quit jumping is absurd.

[Southern_Man 0]

Quote

Quote

Why is that same "let's get 'em" mentality not applied to things like aircraft maintenance? Like boycotting a dz that does seriously unsafe things?

Ooohhh, look, it's the pink elephant in the California living room!

Why would anyone boycott a dz that offers the cheapest lift tickets anywhere? .

On the other hand, we don't see crusades against it. I think most people simple decide that if they don't want to jump there, they won't. Skyride is seen as illegitimately harming innocents (customers who don't know any better) and in the process harming legitimate drop zones and instructors. I don't think people think the same thing about Lodi. If somebody knowingly wants to risk their own life on poorly maintained aircraft then most are more than happy to let them.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[skybytch 259]

Quote

. . .illegitimately harming innocents (customers who don't know any better) and in the process harming legitimate drop zones and instructors. I don't think people think the same thing about Lodi.

How many tandem passengers know better? None. How many AFF students know better? Few to none. They all choose that dz based on price.

Quote

If somebody knowingly wants to risk their own life on poorly maintained aircraft then most are more than happy to let them.

You are correct. I don't have a big issue with my experienced jumper friends going to Lodi. I don't want to go to their funerals (and I am disappointed in some people with ratings who continue to jump there even after seeing BSR's being violated with students there) but they are capable of making their own risk assessment decisions.

That generally isn't true of tandumb passengers and students.