Hook knife discussion - was Fitzgerald GA fatality

[Anachronist 2]

I have no knowledge of the CSPA. My point is the glaring discrepancy between what is considered the minimum experience required for certain privileges (quantified by jump number, which is flawed but the only real way to do it without increasing the complexity significantly).

The current USPA coach rating is irrelevant. The idea that with 100 jumps and a day of lecture you are trusted to participate in student instruction on the ground, in freefall, and give advice on safety but have half the experience required to jump with a GoPro without endangering yourself or others is a bit off.

Maybe I'm just being silly, but that don't jive.

I would suggest the jump requirements for all licenses and ratings at least be doubled.

As for a rating to teach people to teach before becoming an AFFI or for "assistants" to AFFIs, you could have something like the coach rating but the requirements should be more along the lines of a 200 jump minimum, completion of Flight1 101-103 or the equivalent, and more than one day of lecture and two checkout jumps.

But again, cost is a limiting factor as well as instructors to teach all of this material.

Just my two cents.

(Also worth mentioning is the lack of general rigging knowledge among fun jumpers and coaches. I couldn't even conceive all of the things I didn't know that I should have, before having the good fortune to be taken under the wing of some rather experienced folks. More than once I was confronted with a "you really shouldn't have done that" which was the beginning of my realizing how little I understood, even after a coach course and a couple hundred jumps. Rigging should be a fundamental part of every license and rating much more than it is now.)

[kallend 1,620]

gowlerk

Where do you think skydive instructors should come from? Do you think they should have minimum B.Ed.?

I don't think it should be a requirement. However, maybe recognizing that someone with a B.Ed. or other professional teaching credential almost certainly knows more about teaching methods and learning styles than can possibly be transmitted in a weekend course might be a smart idea.

If FAA recognizes it for "certificated flight instructors" why can't USPA do it for coaches? See FAR Part 61.183(e)

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ufk22 32]

kallend

Just to throw some fuel on the fire:

I have been a full-time professional educator for over 40 years, teaching a highly technical subject (engineering).

I have a nationals medal in RW.

I have been on a bunch of world record attempts (successful and otherwise). I have several national and state RW records and most recently, FAI world record for wingsuit large formation.

My presentation on exit separation is widely used at safety day around the country.

As far as USPA is concerned I am not as qualified to be a coach as someone with 101 jumps who has sat through a weekend of training in educational methods by someone who is himself just a part-time educator.

Now, if I wanted to be a CFI (flying instructor) the FAA would exempt me from the pedagogy part of the requirement on account of being a professional educator.

No, you're probably much more qualified than a 100 jump wonder. They do probably need to sit through a whole weekend course just to get the basics.
For someone with your experience, USPA has the option of challenging the course.
Teach 2 ground sessions and 5 air skills, 2 evel dives, one good debrief and good gear check and the rating is yours.
I've had numerous CFI's and even a couple of college professors (one with a doctorate in education) go through my coach and I courses. For most of them, it's not about learning to teach, just showing they are willing and able to teach the USPA way both for content and method.
By and large, these are usually some of our best instructors, but occasionally someone who seems to be most qualified can be one of the worst if they feel they know better than the USPA-ISP method.
P.S. If you want to come to one of my courses, I'll let YOU teach the learning theory (and all the rest if you want to).

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[jimjumper 25]

At least a Coach has to demonstrate some skydiving knowledge/skill. A weakness of the USPA system is that a lot of the teaching and safety decisions are made by the S&TA. There are no formal training or performance requirements to be an S&TA. And yet they are the approving authority for canopy control Instructors and also sign off on a number of safety issues. If your the DZO's buddy and they can talk the Regional Director into signing you off you good! I have seen at least 2 S&TA's that didn't jump. 1 had never made a jump! Now there is a liability loophole..

[keithbar 1]

Thfucking fin scary ad hellly real scenario that makes me carry hook knives is a premature reserve deployment in the door Identify if it's the reserve, if it is, I'm cutting the risers. been there done that got the t-shirt. Not fun at all scary as hell. Would. Hsve gave my left nut fot s sturdy hook knife

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

[DvK 2]

obelixtim

******The main reasoning I hear for a knife is incase of a line over on the reserve.

And even then I'd try to compensate for it, unless it's fucking hopeless, thén I'd try to find the right line to cut...

The only real scenario that makes me carry hook knives is a premature reserve deployment in the door Identify if it's the reserve, if it is, I'm cutting the risers.

Good luck with that. I hope you've already practised hacking thru a piece of webbing on the ground. And doing it all in .00010 seconds if your reserve has already gone out the door.



I should have been more clear, I meant the scenario of having a reserve premature, resulting in an entanglement with equipment and aircraft (canopy over stabilizer)

[obelixtim 100]

DvK

*********The main reasoning I hear for a knife is incase of a line over on the reserve.

And even then I'd try to compensate for it, unless it's fucking hopeless, thén I'd try to find the right line to cut...

The only real scenario that makes me carry hook knives is a premature reserve deployment in the door Identify if it's the reserve, if it is, I'm cutting the risers.

Good luck with that. I hope you've already practised hacking thru a piece of webbing on the ground. And doing it all in .00010 seconds if your reserve has already gone out the door.



I should have been more clear, I meant the scenario of having a reserve premature, resulting in an entanglement with equipment and aircraft (canopy over stabilizer)

Good luck with that!

What were you trained to do if a canopy goes out the door?

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[DvK 2]

If I see something that is attached to me (pilot, bag, reserve pilot whatever) leave the A/C, I will gtfo. If I see something that is attached to someone else flap around in the door I'll kick him/her out of the A/C.

... But getting out doesn't equal getting clear of the plane, becoming a part of the aircraft exterior is still a very real scenario. And when that happens, chances on causing structural damage are very real and increasing every second a jumper and his canopy are trailing with the plane...

ps: perhaps I should be have been even more clear: jumper outside aircraft, prematured canopy outside aircraft and entangled with airframe

[fcajump 153]

DvK

ps: perhaps I should be have been even more clear: jumper outside aircraft, prematured canopy outside aircraft and entangled with airframe

Yep... very different situation than your initial post implied.
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[Joellercoaster 6]

I dunno... that's what I guessed the post was about.

Although lines are easier to cut than risers, I suspect.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[DvK 2]

Joellercoaster

I dunno... that's what I guessed the post was about.

Although lines are easier to cut than risers, I suspect.

Risers are actually surprisingly easy to cut under tension, and you have only four of them.

I think there´s a video of a few dudes testing plastic hook knifes on reserve risers under tension, let me see if I can dig it up.

[billvon 2,380]

>The main reasoning I hear for a knife is incase of a line over on the reserve.

Why do you think that a hook knife would help with that?

[Hellis 0]

Has this thread got back on topic again?

I was going to ask a question a few pages ago, and now that this thread is soon back on topic...

If it is to much information to teach students how to use the knife and when, why do you get them into the plane only a few minutes later?

I'm not saying your teaching is incorrect nor that it does not work, I just want to understand the reason.

Many here has indicated that the students can only absorb "this much" and that adding the knife will overwelm the studens.

My thought is that the knife can be a life saving tool.
And if the students are so tired and can not focus anymore, is it really a good idea to toss them out of a plane at that point?

[billvon 2,380]

>My thought is that the knife can be a life saving tool.

It definitely can be. So can a cellphone, and a whistle, and a tersh. But you have to make a tradeoff between complexity, experience, risk of misuse/failure and likelihood of successful use.

In my opinion, a student gets a very small advantage by having a knife, and a small (but slightly larger) likelihood of it causing problems. Problems include:

-Use when inappropriate (i.e. cutting the stowed part of a stuck brake like to "free" it)

-Malfunctions (I have a video of a knife getting free during opening and cutting three lines on its way up)

-Complexity overload leading to bad decisions (i.e. student goes for the knife instead of cutting away from a lineover)

All that being said, adding a knife shortly after the first few jumps is generally a good idea, provided instruction is given.

[jumpwally 0]

..........anyone know if Jump Shack ever got to inspect the gear ?....

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[sammielu 3]

billvon

>Problems include:

-Use when inappropriate (i.e. cutting the stowed part of a stuck brake like to "free" it)

-Malfunctions (I have a video of a knife getting free during opening and cutting three lines on its way up)

-Complexity overload leading to bad decisions (i.e. student goes for the knife instead of cutting away from a lineover)

Agreed! As long as a first jump course student has practiced and drilled (and re-drilled) their EPs to the point where I'm confident they can execute them if needed, I really don't want them to have other ideas on how to handle emergencies that could get confused. KISS!

For FJC students it simplifies to:
1. No canopy: EPs.
2. Some kind of canopy: unstow toggles, control check to determine if it's a good canopy. If not, EPs.
3. Canopy with line twists: watch your altitude, reach for risers, kick out. Then control check.

At that level, adding hook knife is adding the expectation that they think before reacting to an emergency. I don't want them taking the time to think before they react. Not yet!!!

I've given currency briefings to many jumpers when they come back after a layoff. I always ask them what they would do in specific scenarios. The answers are sometimes absolutely insane. From licensed jumpers with years of experience!! The best one I heard was that in case of a lineover or tension knot, the plan was to climb up the lines and untie it or cut the line that goes over. So... I don't want students thinking or coming up with their own plans. EPs only, KISS.

[FlyLikeARaven 0]

Since it was my comment that sparked this thread, I guess it's finally time for me to comment. I've read every comment in this thread and have given it some thought. As a noob, I'm a little torn--part of me agrees with the people who have said to keep it as simple as possible for students, and part of me agrees with those who say we shouldn't be putting people in the air if they can't handle all the tools they might need.

I finally did buy a hook knife and hope never to have to use it, but after watching that video of the guy tethered to a plane by his booty, I'm glad I have it. Would I have been able to appreciate and use it, if need be, as a student? I'm not sure--but then again I spent most of my student status being terrified of a cutaway. I'm less terrified now, but I know I could handle it better mentally than when I was a student.

What does this mean for the average student? Nothing, really. Perhaps the use of a hook knife could be incorporated into a FJC or during AFF. Perhaps it should at least be mentioned during AFF or subsequent student jumps; however, that would require installing hook knives onto rental and student gear and that would be a hard sell to most DZs.

Again, I am making these statements as a beginner, so I hope you'll keep that in mind as you form your opinions on what I'm about to say. Where, really, should a new jumper be learning things like this? I was fortunate in that I befriended a fellow AFF jumper who just happened to be close friends with a rigger, but other students are not so lucky. Who will teach them? The DZ and its full-time instructors aren't going to show them how to buy a rig, what to look for, and help them figure out what disciplines they'll be good at. This is a rhetorical question, but: whose responsibility is it to give the comprehensive overview of post-student lessons? The DZ's? A full-time instructor? A rigger? A coach? Other jumpers? Is it the student's responsibility to go around asking questions? <--I know this is the "right" answer, which is why it was a rhetorical question. I am happy to ask all the questions necessary, and follow all the guidelines I am given by those I trust, but not every student is so conscientious, and some are downright daredevils.

At this point I'm just waxing philosophical, because so many of these decisions (should I carry a hook knife or ten? am I ready to downsize? should I really still be landing in the student LZ?) are inherently personal. I don't think it's anyone else's responsibility to look out for my safety any more than it is my own; however, I'd just like to remind you long-timers that your guidance and instruction is well-appreciated.

I'm not a lady, I'm a skydiver.

[Joellercoaster 6]

FlyLikeARaven

should I really still be landing in the student LZ?

Sure.

Depending on the dropzone and whether I need to make a back to back, I mostly still do.

For one thing, it's less likely some swoop god who totally keeps his head on a swivel all the time is going to cut me up or worse.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[FlyLikeARaven 0]

For sure; I just meant that was one of those questions a skydiver will have to ask herself at some point (not me; I plan on landing in the student LZ for a good long time). Really, the only person who can answer these questions is the diver herself, with a little input from experienced instructors and coaches.

I appreciate the robust discussion around this topic; I am lucky that people are always happy to offer their opinions about stuff like this, and I'm able to make an informed decision after talking to a bunch of people about it.

I'm not a lady, I'm a skydiver.

[freeflyfree 0]

Hello, reviving an old thread here, but I was looking for a video where people are testing several models of hook knives on actual skydiving harnesses...cutting webbing and such.

Has anybody seen that video? could you post it or send a link?

Thanks,

Felipe

--
Blue Skies
NO FEARS, NO LIMITS, NO MONEY...
"A Subitánea et Improvísa Morte, Líbera nos, Domine."

[johnmatrix 21]

Yes I recall seeing one where a guy cut through the risers of a hanging harness. Would be good to see it again...

[Joellercoaster 6]

Not to mention the other video where one of those little plastic knives leaves its blade stuck in the line. Places should seriously stop selling those things.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?