What guys think about modesty

[TriGirl 268]

I see both your points, but the problem is each person's definition of "modesty." Except for the exposed belly reference, the letter writer does not say what he considers modest vs trashy dress. Most women will hear that as "he wants me to cover my face!", while most guys will hear it as, "finally, someone telling them to keep their tits in their shirts!"

It's that ambiguity that gets societies into trouble. A pencil skirt that falls to mid-knee is appropriate office attire in some societies, but just screams "sexuality" in others. While I do agree that many young girls today emulate what they see on TV to the point of extreme trashiness, I would say that many of them don't realize they're trashy, not trendy.

Even in the post-university world, unfortunately, a lot of people out there really have no idea how they look to others (not just from a sexuality standpoint -- professionally, socially, etc).

As for the video/letter writer -- just take his comments as what YOU define as genuinely trashy attire for the situation. The guy still needs help in seeing past that. However, is there an accompanying video of how college women think about how guys dress?

[I had a bunch of comments after that, but want to see how that question is answered by the masses first]


and.... go.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[Nataly 38]

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Or am I reading between the lines?!!

That and also you're projecting meaning into words and behaviors that don't have that meaning.

Being straightforward and saying what you mean doesn't make one simple or dumb. Or being indirect and unable to say what you mean doesn't make one intelligent.

It has more to do with being able to stand behind what you say and taking responsibility over what you're saying. Women being indirect and unclear with what they're saying leave the responsibility to the listener over what they've said and should something they've said have some negative consequences weasel they're way out of what they've said. Men being direct with what they're saying leave no room for interpretation which forces them to stand behind what they've said.

Wow. And there I was trying to inject a bit of humour...

Dude, it really sounds like you have a beef against women... You keep writing those kinds of negative generalisations all the time. And frankly I find it ironic that you also keep bringing up "feminism" as though it were the problem... Feminism is at its roots a movement to bring about equality between the genders; to highlight the fact that sexism exists and it shouldn't. If you're the kind of person who thinks one gender is better than the other, you are part of the problem - not those who seek a more balanced view.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[simon021 0]

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You say its blaming, I say its taunting.

The way I hear it, he is saying that men have the sinful, lustful ideas in their heads that they have to deal with. And women can either make mens life easier or harder with their behavior. He is simply asking for some understanding and help with his struggles against his natural urges.

Well, then I guess the only thing I think we disagree on is how literally we are to take the argument. Literally speaking, that is all he is saying, yes.

However, I believe (it is only an opinion) that it goes deeper.

So yes. Blame vs. taunt. We can't be sure of the dude's intent, and we can read further into it or not. I think even in it's most simplistic form, it's a very fine (and dangerous) line... (Dangerous because it will piss off a lot of angry feminists!! )

Thats because you're a woman. Men can read a piece of text or hear someone talk and get the message being portrayed. Whereas women always, without exception find some hidden meaning or read something between the lines. Usually something that happens to fit their world view/mental state at that moment.

Men, for the most part, are fairly straightforward and say what they mean with plain words. Women on the other hand talk a lot and assume that the receiver can decipher their mental state and the true uncommunicated meaning behind their words.

While I dont completely agree with either side of this discussion, theres not much to dispute about that.

I'll go ahead and put a disclaimer first. I'm talking about the Majority of men/women. Of course there will be exceptions to this. I know one woman that is about as strait forward and blunt as you could possibly get. No ESP needed with this girl :D

Anyways, take this example:

A husband is thirsty. He asks his wife if she would get him a glass of water please.

Now the wife is thirsty. She makes an obscure comment about how she is thirsty, and expects the man to decipher her thoughts and come to the conclusion that she wants him to get her a glass of water.

Thats just how men and women are.

Someone that dress's like a gangster should be expected to be treated like one. Same as a woman that dresses like a big whore. She should be expected to be treated like one. Now I'm not saying she deserves to be raped, but SHE damn well better expect the attention SHE IS DRAWING TO HERSELF, and the negative/positive attention that comes from that.

I get real sick of women putting themselves on display for everyone to see, leaving nothing to the imagination, and then trying to act like men are such pigs for looking at them.

On the flip side, a lot of the younger generation is being poisoned by society to think dressing like a whore is the in thing or acceptable. I think parents fall to blame for this one. 7-8 year old girls in miniskirts doing dance routines that are far more provocative than Dirty Dancing ever was and all the parents thinking it's just so cute.

It sickens me.

Flame on!

[simon021 0]

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Or am I reading between the lines?!!

That and also you're projecting meaning into words and behaviors that don't have that meaning.

Being straightforward and saying what you mean doesn't make one simple or dumb. Or being indirect and unable to say what you mean doesn't make one intelligent.

It has more to do with being able to stand behind what you say and taking responsibility over what you're saying. Women being indirect and unclear with what they're saying leave the responsibility to the listener over what they've said and should something they've said have some negative consequences weasel they're way out of what they've said. Men being direct with what they're saying leave no room for interpretation which forces them to stand behind what they've said.

Wow. And there I was trying to inject a bit of humour...

Dude, it really sounds like you have a beef against women... You keep writing those kinds of negative generalisations all the time. And frankly I find it ironic that you also keep bringing up "feminism" as though it were the problem... Feminism is at its roots a movement to bring about equality between the genders; to highlight the fact that sexism exists and it shouldn't. If you're the kind of person who thinks one gender is better than the other, you are part of the problem - not those who seek a more balanced view.

The problem with MOST feminists is their message is lost in their poor presentation. Feminists look just as extreme as people that thing women have no place in the work force and should be at home tending children and cooking dinner.

[Nataly 38]

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The problem with MOST feminists is their message is lost in their poor presentation. Feminists look just as extreme as people that thing women have no place in the work force and should be at home tending children and cooking dinner.

I wholeheartedly disagree... I think some extremists may have given feminism a bad rep, but extremists are by very definition NOT representative of the norm/majority.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[Arvoitus 1]

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Wow. And there I was trying to inject a bit of humour...

I don't do that.

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Dude, it really sounds like you have a beef against women... You keep writing those kinds of negative generalisations all the time. And frankly I find it ironic that you also keep bringing up "feminism" as though it were the problem... Feminism is at its roots a movement to bring about equality between the genders; to highlight the fact that sexism exists and it shouldn't. If you're the kind of person who thinks one gender is better than the other, you are part of the problem - not those who seek a more balanced view.

I have nothing against women and nothing against complete and total gender equality. The problem just is that feminism isn't about gender equality. Its about female supremacy. Its completely irrelevant what feminist claim their movement is about when their actions speak a clear message about what they really are after. When for instance did you see or hear a feminist do anything about the following facts:

- 80 % of suicides are committed by men
- 93 % of workplace deaths are male
- 80 % of homeless are men

You haven't, because they don't care. And the usual response is that men need to fix their own problems. According to the feminist mindset, if women have a problem its due to the patriarchal society oppressing the womynkind and the whole society needs to bend over backwards to fix it. If men have a problem, the standard feminist response is that men just need man up and fix their shit. And if you really press them, they'll whine how women are so much unequal still that they need to keep on working, making women more equal.

For feminist, gender equality is a zero sum game. What ever is done to ensure that men's lives becomes better automatically makes women's lives worse, which is unacceptable.

One the stupidest ideas by feminists is the idea that 'equal opportunities should guarantee equal outcomes' and the idea that there needs to be quotas for women to become CEO's for instance. But for some weird reason you'll never hear feminist demand that there'll be quotas for more women to work in any of the 'dirty', dangerous jobs that are usually 'men's jobs'. When, for instance, did you last hear that a woman died in mine collapse whilst working?

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[billvon 2,396]

>On the flip side, a lot of the younger generation is being poisoned by
>society to think dressing like a whore is the in thing or acceptable.

Our parents thought that about us. Their parents thought that about them. Nothing really changes.

[Nataly 38]

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I have nothing against women and nothing against complete and total gender equality. The problem just is that feminism isn't about gender equality. Its about female supremacy. Its completely irrelevant what feminist claim their movement is about when their actions speak a clear message about what they really are after. When for instance did you see or hear a feminist do anything about the following facts:

- 80 % of suicides are committed by men
- 93 % of workplace deaths are male
- 80 % of homeless are men

You haven't, because they don't care. And the usual response is that men need to fix their own problems. According to the feminist mindset, if women have a problem its due to the patriarchal society oppressing the womynkind and the whole society needs to bend over backwards to fix it. If men have a problem, the standard feminist response is that men just need man up and fix their shit. And if you really press them, they'll whine how women are so much unequal still that they need to keep on working, making women more equal.

For feminist, gender equality is a zero sum game. What ever is done to ensure that men's lives becomes better automatically makes women's lives worse, which is unacceptable.

One the stupidest ideas by feminists is the idea that 'equal opportunities should guarantee equal outcomes' and the idea that there needs to be quotas for women to become CEO's for instance. But for some weird reason you'll never hear feminist demand that there'll be quotas for more women to work in any of the 'dirty', dangerous jobs that are usually 'men's jobs'. When, for instance, did you last hear that a woman died in mine collapse whilst working?

WHOA!! There is SO MUCH wrong with what you wrote up there...

What part of EQUALITY to you not understand?? "Female supremacy" is not one of the goals of feminists - it is an excuse used by people who want to discredit feminism.

I don't at all get the argument that men are suffering as well... Surely this is an argument IN FAVOUR of equality? An overwhelming number of feminists argue that the current system is bad for BOTH genders. You yourself are constantly quick to point this out.

If some people snicker at the suffering of men, it's perhaps simply because they feel (rightly or wrongly) that they suffer *more*.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[nigel99 143]

The only reason I watched the video was to see examples of women dressed trashy.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Nataly 38]

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The only reason I watched the video was to see examples of women dressed trashy.

DUUUDE... *That* must have been disappointing!

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[JohnMitchell 14]

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>On the flip side, a lot of the younger generation is being poisoned by
>society to think dressing like a whore is the in thing or acceptable.

Our parents thought that about us. Their parents thought that about them. Nothing really changes.

Showing an ankle used to be scandalous. Birth control was prohibited by many governmensts (actually many still do, in one form or another). Sex was a dirty, misunderstood thing that no one could talk about. People felt guilty about natural desires. I would not want us to slide back into that mindset.