Where will we get engineers?

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Shah,

This one is sorta for you ( ); and anyone else who might be interested.

The two female engineers might not be a size 8 but they look pretty good.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/05/17/education.stem.graduation/index.html?hpt=C1

JerryBaumchen
Mech Engr

[shah269 0]

Thank you a very well written article. I can empathize with the girl. I too due to being an immigrant had to just do it and also felt very unhappy with how the instructors just hazed students. But what choice did I have? As my mother would tell me just put your head down and push and graduate with a bs in engineering and then you can have a job....and I did. 5 years of slow burn and I was out. Looking for a gig in the worst economy for engineers since the death of the moon shot program. But I landed a gig.
I agree %100 with the article.
But further more....is it really worth it if you have a choice? I have a bs in engineering, six sigma black belt, two patents and a few other things and will soon have an MBA and I'm sure I will have a hard time leveraging my engineering experience into increased compensation. My friend with a non technical education not only is in a better spot but in this economy looks to do better.
Sadly as it stands today....there is better pay in financial engineering than actual engineering.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[Belgian_Draft 0]

If you went into the engineering field because you love the work, great.
If you went into engineering to make lots of money, you are an engineer for all the wrong reasons. Very few get rich and many live a miserable existence trying.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[shah269 0]

Quote

If you went into the engineering field because you love the work, great.
If you went into engineering to make lots of money, you are an engineer for all the wrong reasons. Very few get rich and many live a miserable existence trying.

Hell of a sales pitch.
So hard hazing, lowish pay and next to no respect.....
I can see this argument for the arts but engineering.....?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[kallend 1,620]

Quote

Quote

If you went into the engineering field because you love the work, great.
If you went into engineering to make lots of money, you are an engineer for all the wrong reasons. Very few get rich and many live a miserable existence trying.

Hell of a sales pitch.
So hard hazing, lowish pay and next to no respect.....
I can see this argument for the arts but engineering.....?

Want some cheese to go with that?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ryoder 1,380]

Excellent article, especially wrt the "sink or swim" mentality of engineering schools.
That was my exactly my experience in Elec Eng at Purdue.
They didn't see their job as teaching students;
They saw it as putting obstacles in the way of people wanting to be engineers, and driving out 50% of them.
Examples:

- Calculus exams curved so the average grade was a "D".

- An Elec Eng exam where the average score was 20%.

- Physics classes that crammed 2-3 semesters of material into one semester, and the Physics department was complaining to the Elec Eng dept that the course made no sense.

- An electromagnetics course given w/o the prerequisite vector calculus course that is needed in order to understand any of it.

I wouldn't wish that crap on anyone.
And there is no way in hell I would have done it if I'd known what I was getting into.

Deliberating flunking out half the class is a waste of the time and money of the students, and a waste of the resources of the school. There is no excuse for flunking half the students they accept, instead of properly screening out those students up front.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi ryoder,

Re: 'at Purdue'

Well, you see Purdue has this reputation that they like to uphold.

I remember the dean, to a group of newbie engr-wannabees, 'See the person to your left, see the person to your right; they won't be here in two years.'

That was always my goal, to be there in those two years.

IMO the pay is rather good, not great. The unemployment is great, usually one of the lowest of all professions. The female engineers at those other desks, 'Hey, Shah, where are you when I need you?'

JerryBaumchen

[ryoder 1,380]

Quote

I remember the dean, to a group of newbie engr-wannabees, 'See the person to your left, see the person to your right; they won't be here in two years.'

Yes, they used that exact line in a lecture hall in my freshman year.
And hell, it wasn't just *two* years;
They were flunking people out in the *third* year, including a friend of mine.
That asinine electromagnetics course was a third year course.
A good friend of mine was finishing up his PhD in electromagnetics,
and even he ranted to me about what a bunch of crap that course was.
He pulled an electromagnetics text book off his shelf and showed me the author's
instructions that the material should be covered over 2-3 semesters.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Engineering schools are a good place to find them.

West Point being one of them

[warpedskydiver 0]

Quote

Excellent article, especially wrt the "sink or swim" mentality of engineering schools.
That was my exactly my experience in Elec Eng at Purdue.
They didn't see their job as teaching students;
They saw it as putting obstacles in the way of people wanting to be engineers, and driving out 50% of them.
Examples:

- Calculus exams curved so the average grade was a "D".

- An Elec Eng exam where the average score was 20%.

- Physics classes that crammed 2-3 semesters of material into one semester, and the Physics department was complaining to the Elec Eng dept that the course made no sense.

- An electromagnetics course given w/o the prerequisite vector calculus course that is needed in order to understand any of it.

I wouldn't wish that crap on anyone.
And there is no way in hell I would have done it if I'd known what I was getting into.

Deliberating flunking out half the class is a waste of the time and money of the students, and a waste of the resources of the school. There is no excuse for flunking half the students they accept, instead of properly screening out those students up front.

These are the plans of professional assholes (tenured Professors)

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

These are the plans of professional assholes (tenured Professors)

Maybe it's like many fields, the idea that "I went thru all this crap. So will they." Doctors do it with their insane hours in residency. I don't want some doctor working on me who's been on the job 28-29 hours already.

In my profession they washed out 2/3rd's of my class in the first 3 months at the academy. Then we all went to our facilities where maybe another 1/4 washed out. But hey, the stakes are too high to keep too many slow learners/slow thinkers around. Sorry.

[Krip 2]

Hi R

Purdue

I got my engineering degree the smart way

I was a vet paying for school, living and jumping for $175/mo on the G.I.Bill

We heard the rumots about the "look at the peeps sitting next to you" never happened to us we went to a CC for 2 yrs took the calculus classes, physics, and other stuff I can't even remember. No classes with hundreds of students maybe 30 max.

Then we need to pick "a real school" for our last two yr's a all dude school at Rolla MO (school of mines) Or a bisexual school at University of MO.

Graduated with honors in Civil Engr using a slip stick , still jumping every weekend. Got a pay raise the last yr to $225
Then I screwed up and went to work for the federal Gov't.

R.I.P.

One Jump Wonder

[skygranny 0]

Quote

Hi Shah,

This one is sorta for you ( ); and anyone else who might be interested.

The two female engineers might not be a size 8 but they look pretty good.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/05/17/education.stem.graduation/index.html?hpt=C1

JerryBaumchen
Mech Engr

Quote

Size 8 female Mech Eng here, looking for me Jerry?

Love never fails

[wildcard451 0]

Quote

But hey, the stakes are too high to keep too many slow learners/slow thinkers around. Sorry.

Game. Set. Match. SETM is HARD. You have to work at it. Stupid snowflake generation. Can't handle it? Go write a blog post on how tough life is and call yourself an english major.

[kallend 1,620]

Maybe you'd like people who can't handle math and science, and who can't solve difficult problems, to be designing the planes you and your family fly on, the bridges you and your family drive over, the power plants that deliver the electricity to your home...

On the whole I'd prefer the people who can't do the difficult stuff to enter marketing, sales, or real estate.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[riddler 0]

Man, I remember one class in Physics 2 (E&M). 50% of the class dropped. 30% failed. I got a "D" my first try, and felt lucky to be in the 20% that made it through. Nearly everyone failed at least once, some failed three or four times. The university just couldn't admit that the teacher was horrible, because he brought in some good research money.

Supply and demand - if you want more American engineers, pay them more. I work in a small company, with younger people than me that are VPs and make twice the money; because they make sales, and that's all the company cares about. Like it or not, engineers are a dime a dozen, and if there aren't enough Americans, who cares? Plenty of cheap overseas engineers that will come here and work for a teacher's salary.

BTW, why the fuck do we pay teachers so little? Oh, right ...

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[kallend 1,620]

Quote

Man, I remember one class in Physics 2 (E&M). 50% of the class dropped. 30% failed. I got a "D" my first try, and felt lucky to be in the 20% that made it through. Nearly everyone failed at least once, some failed three or four times. The university just couldn't admit that the teacher was horrible, because he brought in some good research money.

Supply and demand - if you want more American engineers, pay them more. I work in a small company, with younger people than me that are VPs and make twice the money; because they make sales, and that's all the company cares about. Like it or not, engineers are a dime a dozen, and if there aren't enough Americans, who cares? Plenty of cheap overseas engineers that will come here and work for a teacher's salary.

BTW, why the fuck do we pay teachers so little? Oh, right ...

Right now engineering and computer/information science make up 10 of the 10 highest paid majors for new 2011 graduates in the USA according to the NACE Spring 2011 Salary Survey.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

Right now engineering and computer/information science make up 10 of the 10 highest paid majors for new 2011 graduates in the USA according to the NACE Spring 2011 Salary Survey.

Our daughter just graduated from Olin College in MA with a BS in engineering. She had multiple job offers before even graduating.

But with that said, we all know there are good teachers and bad teachers. There are few roadblocks worse than a bad teacher.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Our daughter just graduated from Olin College in MA with a BS in engineering. She had multiple job offers before even graduating.

Is she a size 8?

[JohnMitchell 14]

I think so . . . and two separate eyebrows. She's a pretty girl.

[shah269 0]

Engineering is a cult / frat with a very bad sales pitch for your average guy. Even worse if you are at all social. Thus why some are very offended by any criticism of the field.

For me...and this is just me and my experience. Engineering school was hazing. Physical and psychological hazing. I loved the subject I love solving mechanical problems but I with a passion hated the instructors. I as an immigration did not appreciate that my professors or their assistants did not have a command of the language. And the work load of 4 hours of after class work per class per day.....why?

That aside here is who engineering is a good option
Immigrants who would be ok with a lower middle class but stable life.
Girls. All jokes aside given current federal requirements and for public perception a girl will do very well once she graduates. On average a female engineer will move faster up the ladder than a male engineer.
As an hr rep from ge once said..if she has not killed some one or posed nude a female engineer will be given preference to an equally skilled male engineer.
Thus why I'm not surprised when some one says their girl just graduated from an engineering school with 4 job offers.
Basic economics.
So. If possible stand back....other than the love of solving problems...is it worth it.
Yes it's stable yes unemployment is lower than average but given the hazing that engineering school is and the limited compensation packages is it worth it?
For me at the moment with 8 years in the field.....maybe not

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi John,

Quote

. . . the bridges you and your family drive over . . .

My old physics instructor, Prof. Klump ( bless his heart ), used to tell us that when he thought of all the engineering students that he had, he slowed down everytime he came to a bridge.

JerryBaumchen

PS) Engineering is not for everyone; as in any occupation. Mine gave me a good life ( I travelled all over North America, South America, Asia & Europe on projects ), put two kids through college & has provided me with a decent retirement.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Immigrants who would be ok with a lower middle class but stable life.

I'd think the average engineer in the US would have not a lower middle class lifestyle, but a solidly middle-middle class lifestyle, except possibly in locations where the cost of living is really sky-high.

Now it's true that straight engineering usually won't make you very rich, unless you are successful at growing a reasonable part of your income via good investments. And, the business-school grads might have a better shot at grabbing the proverbial brass ring. But if I had a choice, especially over age 40, of being a laid-off engineer or a laid-off business manager, I'd much rather be an engineer.

Business majors often face a lot of age discrimination and resulting under-employment once they hit middle age. There's certainly age discrimination against middle-aged engineers, too, but there are probably more opportunities to get decent-paying consulting work (like freelance project consulting gigs, or being an expert consultant/witness in litigation) as an engineer than as a middle-management type.

[billvon 2,380]

>That asinine electromagnetics course was a third year course.
>A good friend of mine was finishing up his PhD in electromagnetics,
>and even he ranted to me about what a bunch of crap that course was.
>He pulled an electromagnetics text book off his shelf and showed me the
>author's instructions that the material should be covered over 2-3 semesters.

That was pretty common where I went to school. A computer science course where you were expected to learn Lisp in the first week; the rest of the course was on programming theory. A statistics course that was intended to be a two semester course crammed into one, and a differential equations course that included tensor calculus.

On the other hand, I got a much better education - and ended up better educated - than had I gone somewhere else. The recruiter at Union College made an interesting sales pitch when I was looking there:

"We looked through your list of colleges you're applying to, and we figure you'll get into them based on your test scores. But consider this. You'll find the workload easier here. You'll have time to pursue athletics, student government, your social life and you'll still have time to relax."

For a 17 year old kid that was a pretty persuasive argument, but overall I'm glad I went to the harder school. I wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't get the better education.

[aws140 0]

Quote

Maybe you'd like people who can't handle math and science, and who can't solve difficult problems, to be designing the planes you and your family fly on, the bridges you and your family drive over, the power plants that deliver the electricity to your home...

On the whole I'd prefer the people who can't do the difficult stuff to enter marketing, sales, or real estate.

I agree and I am a current mechanical engienering student. I am on my 4th year at SPSU and I juist took up Air Force ROTC as well, so I have extended my stay in college to three more years to complete ROTC, versus the two years it would take without.

Engineering isn't supposed to be easy, or for the weak of heart. It annoys me when so many people assume so and choose the major just for the $$. I had seen countless people change their major from engineering to business because they didn't like the long hours of studying and not being able to have a life. That aspect of it can be draining, but I have a personaly desire to learn and succeed. So when school is on all I do is school, study, and work. I also have a 3.7 GPA, while other ENGR majors that don't elect to put in that much work have much lower GPAs.

I attended a meeting discussing changes to become a PE at our school last semester and this issue came up. One student said by maiing engineering harder we were weakening the chances of USA students versus international students. I was appalled at such an ignorant statement, and even more so when I saw some people agree with it. Of course, the intelligent people in the crowd had the same disgusted look as I did. Sure, make things easier. Why don't we just make becoming a PE as easy as signing a waiver? Then when all these people who shouldn't be engineers start killing loads of people we can solve two problems in one. People will realize being a whiney little biotch and wanting the easy way out isn't the answer, and we will have put a small dent in the world's severe over population problem.

Unfortunately, in this day and age people want everything to be easy. Well, guess what, lifes not easy, and anything that is probably isn't worth too much. If we aren't careful, this mentality, coupled with other detrimental traits already running through the veins of USA, will be our downfall.

*steps off soapbox*