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JerryBaumchen

Where will we get engineers?

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Obama called for training more engineers as a means to boost long-term economic growth, as he sought simultaneously to reassure businesses about his administration’s policies and try to instill some optimism in voters despite dismal recent economic reports.



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Obama announced a program to train 10,000 new American engineers every year through a public-private partnership.

“We know that if we’re going to maintain our leadership in technology and innovation, our best companies need the world’s brightest workers — American workers,” Obama said.



Everyone and their mother is holding their breath thinking that we are going so somehow innovate our way out of this stagnant economy.
And they keep talking about how engineers are going to do it.....
I honestly don't know. I'm not holding my breath. Between talking to my friends in the private industry and the public sector......why should any company hire anyone when they are making record profits and are flush with cash?

All the years of "lean engineering" has translated to record efficiencies in production which has matched up with a stagnant economy perfectly such that companies are making as much money now as they did when things were rocking and rolling. So....why hire? Why invest when the company is doing just fine?

I don't know. Will engineers come in and save the day? Or will financial engineers continue to find new and innovative ways to ensure huge bonuses for themselves and to ensure large dividends to meet stockholder demands?

It's a rough place.
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

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I don't know. Will engineers come in and save the day? Or will financial engineers continue to find new and innovative ways to ensure huge bonuses for themselves and to ensure large dividends to meet stockholder demands?



I feel like your argument is slowly morphing into, "The real money is in being dishonest."

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I don't know. Will engineers come in and save the day? Or will financial engineers continue to find new and innovative ways to ensure huge bonuses for themselves and to ensure large dividends to meet stockholder demands?



I feel like your argument is slowly morphing into, "The real money is in being dishonest."


Sadly, and I hate to say it but recent history will prove it correct, but yes. The real money is legally taking blood from a stone. Not in building or expanding or creating.
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

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I don't know. Will engineers come in and save the day? Or will financial engineers continue to find new and innovative ways to ensure huge bonuses for themselves and to ensure large dividends to meet stockholder demands?



I feel like your argument is slowly morphing into, "The real money is in being dishonest."


Sadly, and I hate to say it but recent history will prove it correct, but yes. The real money is legally taking blood from a stone. Not in building or expanding or creating.



You don't have to hate saying it. The only reason I mention it is because whether or not people do illegal and/or socially destructive things and are able to make a lot of money doing so has little bearing on whether or not there are good reasons to become an engineer.

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>Or will financial engineers continue to find new and innovative ways to
>ensure huge bonuses for themselves and to ensure large dividends to
>meet stockholder demands?

They will try. But at the end of the day, consumers will take something that works over something that doesn't - and you need engineers for that.

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I've been well off and I've been poor.
I know which of the two I enjoyed better.
Capital gives one the ability to make choices.
Without capital one has very little choice.

And people like to have a choice, and they like to have capital. As it stands, engineering is a very large investment of time and capital with very low returns on time and capital.

Thus, the question which came to pass a few pages back. Is it worth it?
My opinion? No. I like capital. I like having it for it provides me a means to by which I can find happiness. Furthermore, I personally don't enjoy working in a total sausage fest environment. I prefer a gender diversified environment where I can have relevant and adult conversations.

I can't find either in engineering. Be it private or public. But that's my problem.

As for the population? How to get them interested in the field? Pay more! Much MUCH MUCH MORE! Make it such that the pay of a base engineer is equal to that on an MBA. Same level of effort was put forth and as such same pay should be provided. Until the pay matches the effort.....why invest time or money if you have a choice? Or as someone pointed out, you have a serious hard on for learning how to speak Hindi.
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

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As for the population? How to get them interested in the field? Pay more! Much MUCH MUCH MORE! Make it such that the pay of a base engineer is equal to that on an MBA.



While engineers working for the government in New Jersey don't too too well, looking at national averages they do better than MBAs. Average salaries off indeed.com show

$81K for an MBA
$93K for a software engineer with $99K for senior engineers
$86K for an electrical engineer with $98K for senior engineers
$82K for a mechanical engineer with $93K for senior engineers

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As for the population? How to get them interested in the field? Pay more! Much MUCH MUCH MORE! Make it such that the pay of a base engineer is equal to that on an MBA.



While engineers working for the government in New Jersey don't too too well, looking at national averages they do better than MBAs. Average salaries off indeed.com show

$81K for an MBA
$93K for a software engineer with $99K for senior engineers
$86K for an electrical engineer with $98K for senior engineers
$82K for a mechanical engineer with $93K for senior engineers



We have way too many MBAs. Just as we have too many lawyers. Neither group creates wealth, they just manipulate and skim off the top.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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As for the population? How to get them interested in the field? Pay more! Much MUCH MUCH MORE! Make it such that the pay of a base engineer is equal to that on an MBA.



While engineers working for the government in New Jersey don't too too well, looking at national averages they do better than MBAs. Average salaries off indeed.com show

$81K for an MBA
$93K for a software engineer with $99K for senior engineers
$86K for an electrical engineer with $98K for senior engineers
$82K for a mechanical engineer with $93K for senior engineers



We have way too many MBAs. Just as we have too many lawyers. Neither group creates wealth, they just manipulate and skim off the top.



Not True! Intellectual Property Attorneys, Which you pretty much need an engineering or biology degree for help protect the inventions of companies which in turn helps companies keep and generate consumer goods and wealth! ;)
I'm not the rope totin charlie Bronson wanna be that's getting us fucking lost.

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We have way too many MBAs. Just as we have too many lawyers. Neither group creates wealth, they just manipulate and skim off the top.



Not True! Intellectual Property Attorneys, Which you pretty much need an engineering or biology degree for help protect the inventions of companies which in turn helps companies keep and generate consumer goods and wealth! ;)



You just gave a great example for his argument:D:D:D
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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We have way too many MBAs. Just as we have too many lawyers. Neither group creates wealth, they just manipulate and skim off the top.



Not True! Intellectual Property Attorneys, Which you pretty much need an engineering or biology degree for help protect the inventions of companies which in turn helps companies keep and generate consumer goods and wealth! ;)



You just gave a great example for his argument:D:D:D



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how so Squeak, The lawyers are engineers themselves, helping protect the inventions, and many have patents themselves... They don't skim, they protect the work and property rights. I wouldn't call that skimming I'd call that good business. B|

I'm not the rope totin charlie Bronson wanna be that's getting us fucking lost.

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As for the population? How to get them interested in the field? Pay more! Much MUCH MUCH MORE! Make it such that the pay of a base engineer is equal to that on an MBA.



While engineers working for the government in New Jersey don't too too well, looking at national averages they do better than MBAs. Average salaries off indeed.com show

$81K for an MBA
$93K for a software engineer with $99K for senior engineers
$86K for an electrical engineer with $98K for senior engineers
$82K for a mechanical engineer with $93K for senior engineers



We have way too many MBAs. Just as we have too many lawyers. Neither group creates wealth, they just manipulate and skim off the top.



Not True! Intellectual Property Attorneys, Which you pretty much need an engineering or biology degree for help protect the inventions of companies which in turn helps companies keep and generate consumer goods and wealth! ;)



Thank you for making my point.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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>They don't skim, they protect the work and property rights.

They protect someone else's work from other lawyers.

Some IP lawyers seem little better than mobsters. "Hey, you wanna pay us some, uh, protection money, on a per-hour basis? You do that I'll make sure my lawyer pal Thurston over there don't have a little accident with your patent."

>I wouldn't call that skimming I'd call that good business.

Well, so is "protection."

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Mabel it was the time I graduated maybe it's where I live but many of my engineering friends who are driven also feel as if they are under paid.......then again I made $36 k my first year out in 2002 my brother the civil engineer made a little less. So.... Was it worth it for me. No. Do I hope to do much better when I have my MBA yes. Not only in compensation but also with the more diversified work environment.

Working with dudes dudes and yes more dudes and limited earning potential isn't for all of us. Which is a shame for I actually enjoy the work
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

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>They don't skim, they protect the work and property rights.

They protect someone else's work from other lawyers.

Some IP lawyers seem little better than mobsters. "Hey, you wanna pay us some, uh, protection money, on a per-hour basis? You do that I'll make sure my lawyer pal Thurston over there don't have a little accident with your patent."

>I wouldn't call that skimming I'd call that good business.

Well, so is "protection."



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hahaha look at any country that doesn't have IP law and you have all sorts of knock off's and fakes. So a engineer that creates something should have no protection from some half ass jerk off that reverse engineers his hard work and sells it for half the price because he can make some 12 yo build the product??? the IP laws are there to protect the creators from someone and coming in and stealing what they rightfully made. Per the Laws of the US. and it's not that hard to get a patent, if the engineer is smart enough to build something, then he should be smart enough to put the paper work through, but most engineers don't want to read, they want to build. So I guess there should be nobody to uphold the law... Fuck the lawyers and the judges.. Let's have good ol fashion lynchings if someone steals my idea. :P:P:P Trust me I'm not a fan of criminal law I've had my fair share of expenses, but I think IP law is something worth while.. But hey I'm sure an engineer such as myself would love to have somebody sell a product I created for half the price... Ok stepping off of the soap box and making another drink....

I'm not the rope totin charlie Bronson wanna be that's getting us fucking lost.

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>They don't skim, they protect the work and property rights.

They protect someone else's work from other lawyers.

Some IP lawyers seem little better than mobsters. "Hey, you wanna pay us some, uh, protection money, on a per-hour basis? You do that I'll make sure my lawyer pal Thurston over there don't have a little accident with your patent."

>I wouldn't call that skimming I'd call that good business.

Well, so is "protection."



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They protect it from reverse engineering and theft of the idea from other less talented engineers that try and steal the idea... ;):)


I'm not the rope totin charlie Bronson wanna be that's getting us fucking lost.

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>They don't skim, they protect the work and property rights.

They protect someone else's work from other lawyers.

Some IP lawyers seem little better than mobsters. "Hey, you wanna pay us some, uh, protection money, on a per-hour basis? You do that I'll make sure my lawyer pal Thurston over there don't have a little accident with your patent."

>I wouldn't call that skimming I'd call that good business.

Well, so is "protection."



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Maybe shoot a message to Bill Booth and see if he was glad he had "protection" on his 3 ring. :P

I'm not the rope totin charlie Bronson wanna be that's getting us fucking lost.

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Mabel it was the time I graduated maybe it's where I live but many of my engineering friends who are driven also feel as if they are under paid.......then again I made $36 k my first year out in 2002 my brother the civil engineer made a little less.



Damn, you got screwed. Even my first temp contract paid about 10k more a year than that. My first full-time career job (and current job) pays a lot more than the temp job. I got both of these jobs in an economic crash when all my non-engineering friends were being laid off or have been unemployed for more than a year. Sounds like you may have gotten screwed by accepting a low salary for a first job out of college if you have to negotiate future salaries based on the previous salary for positions.

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>So a engineer that creates something should have no protection from
>some half ass jerk off that reverse engineers his hard work and sells it for
>half the price because he can make some 12 yo build the product?

Let's put it this way -

That engineer would get far more out of his dollar if he spent that dollar improving and cost-reducing the product, rather than hiring a lawyer for a dollar to fight another lawyer someone else paid a dollar.

>Per the Laws of the US. and it's not that hard to get a patent, if the
>engineer is smart enough to build something, then he should be smart
>enough to put the paper work through, but most engineers don't want to
>read, they want to build.

Some want to read and build, but also think that building stuff is more important than paying lawyers. Can't say as how I disagree.

>So I guess there should be nobody to uphold the law...

Not at all. Sometimes you do need the law. But more often hard work and good design win the day.

>But hey I'm sure an engineer such as myself would love to have
>somebody sell a product I created for half the price...

That will eventually happen, if your product is good enough. No patent will stop that. The trick is to get to market first with a better product and make a lot of money.

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In my experience, IP law isn't much help to the small guy. Unless you're a big enough company to actually fund litigation when someone breaches your IP, you're better off ignoring the whole process and hoping to fly under the radar. If you are big enough to warrant having patents, you still don't want to get into an IP war because the only people that get rich are the lawyers. As with most law, he who has the deepest pockets and the least scruples wins.

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When I graduated I got a job in Finland. I was pulling 2,500 Euros per month. Not a bad gig at all!
For a guy right out of school, I was doing quite well.
And since I was considered the least suicidal person in the company I had a corner office with a balcony.
Finns like to BASE jump without a parachute when their home team loses a hockey game.
I was let go after the company was acquired by the Austrians.

I came back to the US in 2002 looking for an engineering gig. I got an interview with Johnson Controls for a sale engineering job. The compensation looked amazing and the company was great! They flew me out to their HQ and we had three days of interviews. On the last day Enron went under and they didn't hire a single one of the engineers who were interviewed.

So time running out working for the federal government was the last option at a GS-5 level. Which at that time was an amazing $36k give or take.

I've worked with larger private firms and larger public institutions and the best way I can describe it is this, "Engineering is a PHD level education crammed into 4 years, taught by people who do not speak English nor care to learn, only to graduate and be given the compensation and respect of a ditch digger."

And here is why, who brings more profits to a company? A single engineer or one single competent manager? And before any one screams "innovation" and "New products"....really? What new product have you seen on the market in the past 25 years other than cell phones?
And before you point at a hybrid car and start jumping up and down that technology is well over 10 years old.

Look engineering and science really need an PR firm and some high priced legal people on staff. For the industry needs an image makeover and the people who survived the hazing need to be paid better.....hell maybe it's just me....I need to be paid a bit better. Would have rather skydived every Saturday for two years than spend it 8-5 taking EMBA classes.

At least I'm doing better than the average!
http://www1.salary.com/Mechanical-Engineer-I-salary.html
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

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For the industry needs an image makeover and the people who survived the hazing need to be paid better.....hell maybe it's just me....I need to be paid a bit better.



This. I think it's just that you need to be paid better. The majority of my friends that graduated in engineering had their first salaries in the 48 - 53k range. To negotiate salaries, after a couple years, we'll move on to other jobs with higher pay, and continue doing so until we are at a job that pays well and has projects we can tolerate. It may be the area you're living, the salary you chose to start at (you really couldn't negotiate your salary higher than that?), or what it is you're doing exactly, but it seems like you let yourself get screwed.

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