0
kkeenan

Bicycle Accidents

Recommended Posts

Quote

When there are other route options, why do you insist on riding in the road mixing it up with 3000 lb machines? It seem to me to be just so much common sense to ride, say, a sidewalk instead of a road when you can.



This is a fair question because the answer isn't intuitive.

Riding on the sidewalk is illegal in a lot of places (because it's not safe for pedestrians) and depending on the road and side street situation, can be much more dangerous for the cyclist. When people pull up to major roads on a side street they usually roll up fast and stop in the cross walk. They're also always looking at the roadway, not the sidewalk so even if they have visability they don't use it. Pedestrians aren't going fast enough for this to be a problem but bicycles can easily traverse the left lane and run into the car that just flew into their way in a fraction of a second.

Also, people passing you and then immediately turning right such that you have to slam on your brakes and/or take evasive action is already a big enough problem when I ride in the roadway and I'm positive the person saw me. If I rode on the sidewalk I'd get sideswiped in this fashion multiple times a day. Drivers wouldn't pass someone in the left lane and then turn right from the left lane across the nose of another car, but that's effectively what they do all the time to bicyclists.

Quote

When there are other route options, why do you want to suck smog in the middle of traffic? It seem to me to be just so much common sense to ride, say, a back street instead of a main road when you can.



For the same reason you don't drive your car on those roads if you can help it, the route very quickly becomes convoluted and I don't want to deal with 5000 stop signs. And it doesn't solve any of the intersection problems on major roads.

Using sidewalks and back streets assumes that the biggest hazard as a bicyclist is being hit from behind when you and the car are just driving straight down the road, but that's not what you need to be most worried about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

say, a sidewalk instead of a road when you can.


You just proved your ignorance on the subject of traffic laws.

Quote

screwing with drivers like two-abreast,


More ignorance.


For someone who claims he's so well informed when talking about instruction, why don't you try educating yourself on something you do every day and puts the lives of many others in danger?



'Scuse me, Remi, you missed the point and I don't remember claiming to be an expert on riding. Few of you weekend warriors can claim that.

I DO have some common sense though. And if you want to stand on "rules" while you're lying there broken and possibly dead, then by all means, have at it.

My riding education came on the road...Give the riders as much room and as wide a berth as possible because you don't know what they will do any any given moment.

Lets' see...sidewalk....dead...sidewalk...dead....oh, I'll take dead because sidewalk is against the rules. Meh, makes sense to some, I guess.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
All of that makes sense in its own way except the parts about:
-getting hit from the side by a turning car.
I would guess (tip o' the hat to Remi) that it happens just as often while in the street as it would if you were on a sidewalk of some sort.

As far as sidewalks....if you're talking about sidewalks in the city I would agree, rightfully so, that pedestrians present their own problems for you guys.
What I was envisioning was long stretches along suburb roads. I was envisioning my route to work where there were long, long stretches of sidewalks along the road and nobody using them. Legality aside, biking commuters were in the road with cars instead.

-choosing the route because of multiple stop signs.
I dunno. Makes more sense to me to be away from as many driving bozos as possible.


You guys riding bikes on American streets have bigger balls than I do.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bicyclists don't belong on the sidewalks. Generally it makes for a very dangerous situation. It is not legal in many places, as well. For example: people don't tend to stop, look in both directions, and wait for a break in "traffic" before walking out that door and onto the sidewalk. Somebody riding even 10 mph can kill.

If you need to be on the sidewalk, become a pedestrian pushing that bike.

Learning how to ride in traffic safely is a necessity. Cars and bikes co-own the road with equal rights and responsibilities.
lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Again, sidewalks are not for bikes. They are illegal, and dangerous to ride on.

Andy: if you ride a car on the road, you need to know the rules of the road, for cars and bike. Educate yourself. Hint: they're basically the same for both.

And putting the blame on the death of riders being hit from behind, or turned into, on the cyclist is pretty fucking low. Thanks for stating where you stand on this.
Remster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

from behind, or turned into, on the cyclist is pretty fucking low. Thanks for stating where you stand on this.



Bejeezus, Remi. Where did I say that?

It's really simple. Common sense.

You want to know where I stand on this? I'll spell it out for you.

It takes two to tangle. People do stupid shit...on BOTH sides of the fence. If you are the one doing stupid shit you suffer the consequences.

If anyone thinks it's all one-sided, they are mistaken. Falling back on rules saying I was right and you were wrong doesn't help you one bit when you are laying in the road broken or in jail for vehicular manslaughter.

Simple common sense can prevent more accidents than any rule can. For example, it doesn't matter what vehicle your are in or on....you don't want to get blasted by some fool running a red light, look before you roll out into that intersection regardless of whether you have "right of way" or not.

If everybody, on both sides of the fence played by the "rules" there would, hopefully, be fewer accidents but you and I both know that ain't-a-gonna-happen.

Some of you guys are coming across as if it's all the drivers fault and that is far, far from the truth. Riders do as much stupid shit as drivers do. Have you ever passed, on the right, a string of cars stopped for a stop light....and then wondered why the guy turning right on red cut you off?

If you play in the street, you're gonna get run over. No rule, law, regulation or anything is going to protect you. Your best bet is to drive or ride like everybody is trying to kill you....and even that won't guarantee your safety.

There. How's that?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Generally it (bicycles on the sidewalk) makes for a very dangerous situation. .


No doubt and all true. Legalities aside, my logic says this:
- riding in the road is dangerous
- riding on the sidewalk is dangerous

Meh....get hit by a car or hit a pedestrian...
Hmmmmmm.....

Banning bikes from the sidewalk protects the pedestrian but it forces the rider out into the street where he faces even more danger. I never did understand the logic of that.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Have you ever passed, on the right, a string of cars stopped for a stop light....and then wondered why the guy turning right on red cut you off?



Yeah, that's a pretty rookie mistake. You have to look for both turn signals and "body language" to figure out if and how many cars may be turning right on red as you approach lights. I also slow down and slot in as I approach a line of cars that is starting to move so I'm never along side a car as it starts accelerating.

The one thing I can't figure out is why so many people tend to list over into the curb / right part of the lane as they slow to a stop in a line of cars. 5 mph? plenty of room to get by them. 2 mph? they look like they're parked against the curb. This is more annoying than dangerous though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Generally it (bicycles on the sidewalk) makes for a very dangerous situation. .


No doubt and all true. Legalities aside, my logic says this:
- riding in the road is dangerous
- riding on the sidewalk is dangerous

Meh....get hit by a car or hit a pedestrian...
Hmmmmmm.....

Banning bikes from the sidewalk protects the pedestrian but it forces the rider out into the street where he faces even more danger. I never did understand the logic of that.



Andy most of these folks are not talking about a family strole around the park on a bicycle.
A lot of these people are riding bicycles at speeds and distances thart would prohibit them from even attempting to ride on sidewalks.
Some of these folk ride at a speed well above anything pedestrians could or should have to deal with.
Riding at those speeds if you come off, either by car, kerb or pedestrian, it's still going to hurt, alot.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I DO have some common sense though.



'Common sense' is an incredibly poor substitute for experience and knowledge. And if you want to claim that a cyclist is going to be as visible to a driver approaching a junction on the sidewalk as he is on the road then I'd argue that your common sense is seriously fucked anyway.

Further, those long straight unbroken sidewalks you're talking about - where I live, those just don't exist, and I'd question the length of the ones you're talking about. In the context of a reasonable distance commute, let alone a training ride I'd wager they're not that long, which means that if you do use them when they're available you'll simply end up filtering in and out of traffic multiple times when you could just be riding straight and predictable in the road the whole time. As someone who actually spends a serious amount of time on a bike, I know which one I prefer. But hey, you've apparently got common sense, so feel free to armchair quarterback to your little heart's content.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Riding at those speeds if you come off, either by car, kerb or pedestrian, it's still going to hurt, alot.



Yes. Hence, the "bigger balls" comment.

Yes, I can see the difference in the two types of riding. And, yes, I was addressing the one type while they were probably addressing the other.

I just want everyone to be careful out there....regardless of the type of riding being done.

(Sounds like a beauty pageant contestant speaking for world peace, eh?)
:D:D

It's bad enough being on a bike exposed to all the possibilities involved with just coming off and then, on top of that, having to deal with bozo drivers.

My hope was to inject some common sense into the equation by having riders reduce that exposure whenever possible. It was disappointing to see so many focusing so much on "rules" as opposed to safer practices.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

I DO have some common sense though.



'Common sense' is an incredibly poor substitute for experience and knowledge.



But hey! If you know it everything there is to know and then pull out in front of a dump truck, Meh....have at it, Jakee. Use your brain, boy.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Quote

I DO have some common sense though.



'Common sense' is an incredibly poor substitute for experience and knowledge.



But hey! If you know it everything there is to know and then pull out in front of a dump truck



No. As I pointed out in my previous post that's actually your 'common sense' suggestion on the safest way to ride. Hence why everyone on this thread who's ever sat on a bike saddle is telling you that you're talking rubbish.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was down in Salt Lake City, Utah this weekend visiting family and almost hit a biker. :S

V and I were driving on a busy 4 lane city street, speed limit 40 mph. We needed to turn right into a neighborhood, but a bicyclist was on our side of the road riding the same direction, so we slowed way down to turn behind him. With no signal, though, he turned right onto the same street as we wanted. Fine, we followed, and then moved slightly left on this side street to pass him. It was an uphill grade, and he had slowed quite a bit. Still fine, until he suddenly turned hard left to take another side street, again with no signal or even a glance over the shoulder! I hit the horn and the brakes at the same time, screeching to a halt as he swerved back away from my rental car bumper.

We both took a deep breath, then I rolled down the passenger window and asked if he was okay. He said yes, and apologized for being an idiot. I told him I rode too and it was okay. He was about my age, early 50's, good shape, intelligent. He just had a lapse of judgement. So . . . let's be careful out there.

This was the second time I'd had a cyclist try to splat my bumper doing that. The first time would have probably been a fatality. [:/]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Generally it (bicycles on the sidewalk) makes for a very dangerous situation. .


No doubt and all true. Legalities aside, my logic says this:
- riding in the road is dangerous
- riding on the sidewalk is dangerous

Meh....get hit by a car or hit a pedestrian...



Nope.

You get hit by cars where roads intersect sidewalks or bike paths (that's where I got hit) because they're not looking for vehicle speed traffic off the main road.

I'd rather ride on a street with no shoulder or bike lane because it's safer.

Quote


Banning bikes from the sidewalk protects the pedestrian but it forces the rider out into the street where he faces even more danger. I never did understand the logic of that.



Although people think sidewalks are safer studies show that's not the case.

For example, the Canadians found a collision rate of 15.8/10,000 kilometers on the sidewalk versus 8.2/10,000 km on the road with a major injury rate of 10.0/10,000km on the sidewalk versus 1.0/10,000 km on the road.

http://www.enhancements.org/download/trb/1636-011.PDF

The other studies I've seen have all been similar reporting sidewalks as at least twice as dangerous as roads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Drew, thank you for empirical evidence regarding the sidewalk issue. Hopefully it will open some eyes.
I ride upwards of 5,000 miles a year on the streets and country roads in/around Kansas City and am therfore very familiar with topic at hand. I would like to make the following simple concise points:

1. Cycling is a growing activity in almost every city. People use it for transportation, recreation, rehabilitation, etc. It may not be what you choose to do but it is not going away.

2. Motorists should read and understand the laws as they pertain to operating motor vehicles around bicycles. I can guarantee many motorists would be surprised at what they don't know. Please educate yourselves.

3. Cyclists should read and understand the laws as they pertain to operating their bicycles. I can guarantee many cyclists would be surprised at what they don't know. Please educate yourselves.

4. Both motorists and cyclists should obey these laws for the safety of ALL involved.

5. I encourage law enforcement to educate themselves as to the specifics of the law and feel free to enforce those laws EQUALLY.

6. Simply treat your fellow humans with a little respect. That bike rider could be your father trying to rehabilitate from knee or open heart surgery. It could be your son or daughter commuting to their college class or to work because they cannot afford a car. It could be your son trying to become the next Lance Armstrong.

That is my diplomatic approach. We'll try that first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

"Common Sense" suggests they are called sidewalks and not bike paths for a good reason.:P



Cool. Ride the roads and battle the 3000 lb machines. Have fun!
You guys so focused on the sidewalk issue...trying so hard to avoid the bigger issue...funny. Common sense says use your brain and don't do stupid stuff. Maybe you think bikers are immune to that. Again, have fun!
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

That is my diplomatic approach. We'll try that first.



Wouldn't be grand if everyone could and would do that?

:D:D
How dare you inject common sense and logic into this discussion.
:D:D
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

trying so hard to avoid the bigger issue...



Which is?

Quote

Common sense says use your brain and don't do stupid stuff. Maybe you think bikers are immune to that.



Whuffo you wanna ride that bike?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

That is my diplomatic approach. We'll try that first.



Wouldn't be grand if everyone could and would do that?

:D:D
How dare you inject common sense and logic into this discussion.
:D:D


A) You do get that he disagrees with you, right?

B) Sometimes I just don't know whether you actually believe you are polite and logical on these forums, or if you're just fucking with us again.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Cool. Ride the roads and battle the 3000 lb machines. Have fun!



You could use the same logic to argue that if the average car weighs 3000 pounds, and tractor-trailer rigs up to 80,000 pounds, you shouldn't drive your car on the road since it doesn't stand a chance in a collision with one.
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As for the guy that died, that is terrible and he has my sympathy. I haven't read this whole thread, but of course I have an opinion on the matter-

Yes, I get it that bicycles have a right to be in the road- and ever since the internal combustion engine, it is long past time to change that! I would support a law prohibiting bicycles in any road with a speed limit over 25 MPH*. The logic is clear in this- we already have laws prohibiting pedestrians on the interstate, taking the bikes off faster streets over 25 MPH is a logical extension.

*Except in designated bike lanes. When these exist, they must terminate before intersections or have a dedicated signal. If no signal, the cyclist can then walk it through the intersection like a pedestrian in the crosswalk.

The argument that fuel taxes don't pay the whole cost of the road is irrelevant. Just because you pay a portion of the tax doesn't mean you get to do whatever the fuck you want with the right of way. Part of my taxes pay for the capitol building too, but I don't think I have a right to walk in there and start a football game whenever I want- the dominant use should prevail and be protected.

I can't wait for someone to get all indignant while finding a creative way to dodge the fact that it is against common sense for objects of greatly varying speeds to play together.

I think Billvon got close with the comparison to swooping. However, we can debate how close is too close for standard patterns vs. big turns (500 ft? 1000 ft?), but there is no such debate where slow moving bikes vs. fast moving vehicles are concerned- you are either in the lane or out of it. Just like USPA made group members separate standard patterns vs. swooping by space or time when the canopies got faster, its time to do the same with bikes and cars. The space for vehicles should be the road, the space for bikes should be the bike lane. The time for each should be anytime the roads are open (always).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
True enough! I'd venture to say the most car drivers realize that. But, it still doesn't prevent them from doing stupid shit when they lack common sense.

So, do you disagree with the truck route concept?
The idea is to separate the trucks from as much common traffic as one can.

Does it make sense to throw out those rules and stand on the idea that everyone has rights, take those rights and be damned with everything else...even my own personal safety?

My original questions were about alternatives to putting oneself in danger. Questions about minimizing that danger.
Nope, there's rules and we'll take those rules and be damned with any alternatives.

You cyclists didn't like the sidewalk idea and came up with a study that supports the idea that more incidents happen on sidewalks than roads. Fine and dandy. I'll take that. I still get the willies thinking about getting hit by a car as opposed to getting hit by another bike or pedestrian.

What about alternative routes that would take you out of heavy car/truck traffic?

I hope none of the posters here are the ones doing the stupid stuff that gets them hurt.


edited to add the last four paragraphs.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0