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Reno Air Races

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>the aircraft would immediately ease up the G-forces on its own widening the radius of
>the turn . . .

. . . and may have continued to roll as well, decreasing the radius of turn. You can reduce AOA all you like - if you continue to roll in either direction you're going to eventually start a nearly vertical descent, as the roll cancels out any net lift.



You mean the roll proportionally cancels the vertical lift vector:P

Also, with an expert pilot and an experimental fighter racer, the load and com/col balance may have been very different from standard aviation, making the neutral "untrimmed" (like a departed trim tab) be neutral or negatively balanced.

I know I have flown competition sailplanes with a illegal CG once or twice. Just keep the speed up;)

-SPACE-

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Preliminary report released. From NTSB.gov:
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On September 16, 2011, about 1626 Pacific daylight time, an experimental North America P-51D, N79111, impacted terrain following a loss of control while maneuvering at Reno Stead Airport, Reno, Nevada. The airplane was registered to Aero-Trans Corp, Ocala, Florida, and operated by the pilot as Race 177 under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. The commercial pilot sustained fatal injuries; the airplane sustained substantial damage. Casualties on the ground included 10 fatalities and 74 injured. As of the time of this preliminary report, eight of the injured remain hospitalized, some in critical condition. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident, and no flight plan had been filed for the local air race flight, which departed from Reno Stead Airport about 10 minutes before the accident.
The airplane was participating in the Reno National Championship Air Races in the last event of the day. The airplane had completed several laps and was in a steep left turn towards the home pylon when, according to photographic evidence, the airplane suddenly banked momentarily to the left before banking to the right, turning away from the race course, and pitching to a steep nose-high attitude. Witnesses reported and photographic evidence indicates that a piece of the airframe separated during these maneuvers. After roll and pitch variations, the airplane descended in an extremely nose-low attitude and collided with the ground in the box seat area near the center of the grandstand seating area.
Investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and the Federal Aviation Administration examined the wreckage on site. They documented the debris field and identified various components of the airplanes control system and control surfaces. The wreckage was removed to a secure storage facility for detailed examination at a later date.
The airplanes ground crew noted that the airplane had a telemetry system that broadcast data to a ground station as well as recorded it to a box on board the airplane. The crew provided the ground station telemetry data, which includes engine parameters and global positioning satellite system data to the NTSB for analysis. The onboard data box, which sustained crush damage, was sent to the NTSBs Vehicle Recorder laboratory for examination. Investigators recovered pieces of a camera housing and multiple detached memory cards from the airplanes onboard camera that were in the debris field. The memory cards and numerous still and video image recordings were also sent to the Vehicle Recorders laboratory for evaluation.
The Federal Aviation Administration and the Reno Air Race Association are parties to the investigation.



Nothing new. No mention of a seat, and I still think the seat issue is irrelevant. All video, pictures and credible witness reports show the time of loss of control (meaning as soon as the plane became erratic and contrary to standard emergency race departure maneuvers.) was right as the trim tab departed from the tail.

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Preliminary report released. From NTSB.gov:

Quote

On September 16, 2011, about 1626 Pacific daylight time, an experimental North America P-51D, N79111, impacted terrain following a loss of control while maneuvering at Reno Stead Airport, Reno, Nevada. The airplane was registered to Aero-Trans Corp, Ocala, Florida, and operated by the pilot as Race 177 under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. The commercial pilot sustained fatal injuries; the airplane sustained substantial damage. Casualties on the ground included 10 fatalities and 74 injured. As of the time of this preliminary report, eight of the injured remain hospitalized, some in critical condition. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident, and no flight plan had been filed for the local air race flight, which departed from Reno Stead Airport about 10 minutes before the accident.
The airplane was participating in the Reno National Championship Air Races in the last event of the day. The airplane had completed several laps and was in a steep left turn towards the home pylon when, according to photographic evidence, the airplane suddenly banked momentarily to the left before banking to the right, turning away from the race course, and pitching to a steep nose-high attitude. Witnesses reported and photographic evidence indicates that a piece of the airframe separated during these maneuvers. After roll and pitch variations, the airplane descended in an extremely nose-low attitude and collided with the ground in the box seat area near the center of the grandstand seating area.
Investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and the Federal Aviation Administration examined the wreckage on site. They documented the debris field and identified various components of the airplanes control system and control surfaces. The wreckage was removed to a secure storage facility for detailed examination at a later date.
The airplanes ground crew noted that the airplane had a telemetry system that broadcast data to a ground station as well as recorded it to a box on board the airplane. The crew provided the ground station telemetry data, which includes engine parameters and global positioning satellite system data to the NTSB for analysis. The onboard data box, which sustained crush damage, was sent to the NTSBs Vehicle Recorder laboratory for examination. Investigators recovered pieces of a camera housing and multiple detached memory cards from the airplanes onboard camera that were in the debris field. The memory cards and numerous still and video image recordings were also sent to the Vehicle Recorders laboratory for evaluation.
The Federal Aviation Administration and the Reno Air Race Association are parties to the investigation.



Nothing new. No mention of a seat, and I still think the seat issue is irrelevant. All video, pictures and credible witness reports show the time of loss of control (meaning as soon as the plane became erratic and contrary to standard emergency race departure maneuvers.) was right as the trim tab departed from the tail.



Here's the link:

www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20110917X22412&key=1
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Hi Paul,

I was talking with Kelly Farrington this morning and he said he was ~150 ft point of impact and that Ralph Hatley was ~75 ft away.

:S

JerryBaumchen



Change of underwear for those guys, I bet. Scary shit!!.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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A friend of ours from the Voodoo team just posted a new video of the accident as seen from his view on top of their transporter. It does not show the impact. What it does show is rather interesting. The first pitching move the aircraft made while still banked over is the hardest pull of the whole sequence. The tail wheel is starting to come out before it rolls level and makes the pitch up. The tail also flexes a lot while this is happening. You can hear the flutter starting (remember the sound is delayed due to the distance from the camera) as it goes up. Also, Jimmy is not visible in the canopy as it rolls level. It is pretty clear the trim tab linkage broke and that caused it's first move. Then as it went up, the flutter set in, and the tab departed just as it started the roll over the top. As far as the seat failing, even if it did it would have had no affect on the accident. They had some sort of tank mounted to the bottom of the seat and as I understand it, that tank sat on the floor as well, so the seat could not have collapsed downward. You can see the video here: http://vimeo.com/29519344

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Hi Paul,

I was talking with Kelly Farrington this morning and he said he was ~150 ft point of impact and that Ralph Hatley was ~75 ft away.

:S

JerryBaumchen



Hi Jerry

I knew ralph had been going to the races for a very long time. Mr Farrington was news to me. Losing Mr Farrington would have been a major loss:(:(

Back to the reason for the loss of life that exceeded One. IMO One is to many but thats the pilot so he knew and accepted the risks.

AFAIK One of the critical difference between air shows and races is the distance frsom the flt path to the crowds.

I'm not a pilot, and havent been to reno. The Box seats $$$ were in hind sight danger close. Thats part of the draw I guess the noise, speed, maybe feeliing your filling in youur teeth vibratiing as the planes buzz by.:)
Reminds me of people trying to get as close to the train tracks as the train goes speeding bye. What a rush just don't slip and look before turn around because there may be a train heading in the opposite direction that is directly behind you, and you can't hear it.[:/]

Time will tell if the race officals move the crowds further back from the racers. Not as exciteing but at least a little safer. [:/] Who knows maybe the FAA & Race officals will leave the layout as is and crowds will return.

The blood and guts stuff:(, Not really interested in that . Dead is dead the nightmares of the people that witnessed it will continue for a very long time.:(

R.
One Jump Wonder

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AFAIK One of the critical difference between air shows and races is the distance frsom the flt path to the crowds.

I'm not a pilot, and havent been to reno. The Box seats $$$ were in hind sight danger close. Thats part of the draw I guess the noise, speed, maybe feeliing your filling in youur teeth vibratiing as the planes buzz by.:)
Reminds me of people trying to get as close to the train tracks as the train goes speeding bye. What a rush just don't slip and look before turn around because there may be a train heading in the opposite direction that is directly behind you, and you can't hear it.[:/]

Time will tell if the race officals move the crowds further back from the racers. Not as exciteing but at least a little safer. [:/] Who knows maybe the FAA & Race officals will leave the layout as is and crowds will return.



You're wrong. The crowd at Reno sits much farther than most air shows I've been to. The planes don't fly over the crowd at any time during the race. Unlike airshows where the Angels and T-birds regularly fly ninety degrees to the flight line which puts them right over the crowd. I've not been anywhere else that they are as safety nuts as Reno.
Don't talk about what you don't know. Or get a job with Fox news!

U only make 2 jumps: the first one for some weird reason and the last one that you lived through. The rest are just filler.
scr 316

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A friend of ours from the Voodoo team just posted a new video of the accident as seen from his view on top of their transporter. It does not show the impact. What it does show is rather interesting. The first pitching move the aircraft made while still banked over is the hardest pull of the whole sequence. The tail wheel is starting to come out before it rolls level and makes the pitch up. The tail also flexes a lot while this is happening. You can hear the flutter starting (remember the sound is delayed due to the distance from the camera) as it goes up. Also, Jimmy is not visible in the canopy as it rolls level. It is pretty clear the trim tab linkage broke and that caused it's first move. Then as it went up, the flutter set in, and the tab departed just as it started the roll over the top.4



When you say "flutter" do you mean aerodynamic flutter? or just a fluttering sound as the trim tab came off?
SmugMug

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A friend of ours from the Voodoo team just posted a new video of the accident as seen from his view on top of their transporter. It does not show the impact. What it does show is rather interesting. The first pitching move the aircraft made while still banked over is the hardest pull of the whole sequence. The tail wheel is starting to come out before it rolls level and makes the pitch up. The tail also flexes a lot while this is happening. You can hear the flutter starting (remember the sound is delayed due to the distance from the camera) as it goes up. Also, Jimmy is not visible in the canopy as it rolls level. It is pretty clear the trim tab linkage broke and that caused it's first move. Then as it went up, the flutter set in, and the tab departed just as it started the roll over the top. As far as the seat failing, even if it did it would have had no affect on the accident. They had some sort of tank mounted to the bottom of the seat and as I understand it, that tank sat on the floor as well, so the seat could not have collapsed downward. You can see the video here: http://vimeo.com/29519344

(url made into a link for convenience of other readers)
It seems from the video that the plane was banked steeply coming out of the last turn, then quite abruptly rolled several degrees so the wings were almost perpendicular to the ground before just as quickly rolling back to where the wings are level just as the plane begins to pitch up. I'm not a pilot so I really don't know the answer to this, but is that abrupt roll to the perpendicular position a normal maneuver, or might it indicate breaking of the trim tab linkage and loss of control?

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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That video tells a good story of what happened.

IMO the initial ~10 degree left/inbound was unintentional and a result of the airframe failure. The opposite roll, to the right to level wings was the pilot starting an emergency race exit maneuver. At the initial pitch up, that looked pretty intense, I am guessing he lost consciousness. Then you can see the trim tab falling off. Everything after that (from other videos) looks Smooth and unintentional.

I'm no race pilot, but I would guess the first instinct of a pilot with an airframe issue in that race would roll level then gain as much altitude as possible. In airplanes, unlike car racing, you would want a lot of power in to get as high as possible to work out whatever is wrong. Thus, with the trim tab gone, he had different or no elevator feedback and at that speed could have easily over-pulled and blacked out. At this point, he was full power or at least high power until the end. You can see the pitch of the blades immediately before impact are VERY high AOA (high power setting)

-SPACE-

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I'm no race pilot, but I would guess the first instinct of a pilot with an airframe issue in that race would roll level then gain as much altitude as possible. In airplanes, unlike car racing, you would want a lot of power in to get as high as possible to work out whatever is wrong. Thus, with the trim tab gone, he had different or no elevator feedback and at that speed could have easily over-pulled and blacked out. At this point, he was full power or at least high power until the end. You can see the pitch of the blades immediately before impact are VERY high AOA (high power setting)


Once the trim tab fails, the stick would immediately be forced backwards towards the pilot. It's unlikely that any pilot could've put enough forward pressure on the stick to hold the nose down. For a conscious pilot, the priority would be to slow the airplane down by throttling back and doing a steep climbing turn to reduce the nose up force on the stick. The fact that the power wasn't reduced is just another indication that Leeward was unconscious.

I wonder how functional the other trim tab was. A pilot would immediately try putting in more nose down trim but the system may have been damaged when the other trim tab broke away.
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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Once the trim tab fails, the stick would immediately be forced backwards towards the pilot. It's unlikely that any pilot could've put enough forward pressure on the stick to hold the nose down. For a conscious pilot, the priority would be to slow the airplane down by throttling back and doing a steep climbing turn to reduce the nose up force on the stick. The fact that the power wasn't reduced is just another indication that Leeward was unconscious.

I wonder how functional the other trim tab was. A pilot would immediately try putting in more nose down trim but the system may have been damaged when the other trim tab broke away.



I was under the impression the ghost was modified to only use one trim tab.
(saw it on another aviation forum, so close to zero credibility)
Sinceit was a fixed steabilizer do you know if the AOI was modified?

[more ignorant speculation]
I thought the video showed him in a high G turn, so he is already prepped for taking a good acceleration. When the tab or linkage failed, he went to a much higher G. I figure he had a second or two to level the wings, then went dark. Of course he was unconscious.
[/speculation]

-SPACE-

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The tab on the right elevator half was fixed. The angle of incidence had not been changed. (HUGE mistake) The initial roll to the left was a result of wake turbulence. It happened at the same time the trim tab failed. I have seen a video taken from right at pylon 8 inside the course and you can see the tab fail right before he gets rocked by the turbulence.

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I have a friend that has actually worked on P-51s for a couple of museums.

He told me that the tab on the elevator really isn't a trim tab, but an actual control surface that makes the elevator move. How I understood it was (I am NOT an aviation mechanic by the way!! ) as the pilot puts input into the elevator, the tab moves, therefore moving the entire elevator. Does this sound right??? Or am I waaay off??

Thanks
Ryan

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He told me that the tab on the elevator really isn't a trim tab, but an actual control surface that makes the elevator move.



Everything I've read so far suggests it was a trim tab.

What you were told about is a "servo tab", which tends to be used on large aircraft (from the era before powered hydraulic controls), where the pilot's strength is only enough to move a small tab, which pushes the elevator into the desired position. It is the servo tab that is connected to the control system, not the elevator.

A servo and trim tab do look similar, although the control cables / rods / tubes to the tab and elevator are different.

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I have a friend that has actually worked on P-51s for a couple of museums.

He told me that the tab on the elevator really isn't a trim tab, but an actual control surface that makes the elevator move. How I understood it was (I am NOT an aviation mechanic by the way!! ) as the pilot puts input into the elevator, the tab moves, therefore moving the entire elevator. Does this sound right??? Or am I waaay off??

Thanks
Ryan



You're friend was either confused or doesn't know what he's talking about. I've flown a Mustang, it is a trim tab.
SmugMug

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Not to mention the fact that Reno IS an airshow.



Nope, but they do have short airshow performances between heats


It must be a matter of semantics. If they have aerobatic flying demonstrations for an open air assembly of spectators requiring a waiver from FAR 91.303, etc. then it's an airshow.

My point was that there's no distinction between the Reno Air Races and an "airshow." Even the Patriot jet aerobatic team was there.
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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Dude, if I were you, I'd find a way to work that into EVERY SINGLE conversation I ever had with ANYONE.



Naw, for that type of conversation I usually bring up flying the B-24.....or the B-17....at Quincy.



Bombers are cool and all, but fighters will always win.

-SPACE-

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