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wolfriverjoe 1,329
Quoteperhaps this is the result of the way they train pilots now.
the fast track system that gets them into the seat at 400hrs, we don't want any stinking pilots with outside expierience that earned it the hard way!
then spend 95% of their time on auto-pilot.
I'll agree with that.
Spending a couple hundred hours teaching is invaluable experience. Both from the idea that you have to understand something to teach it and to have students pull the most amazing things on you.
Toss in a few hundred flying jumpers where you have slow (or at least slower) flight with weird CG situations and odd control response from the airflow being disturbed by the floaters hanging off the side.
But then the pilot has too much independent thought about how stuff should be done, has bad habits that need to be "unlearned" and all the other issues that the dedicated training was supposed to address.
I really don't know the right answer.
Maybe some non-flight emergency reaction or stress response testing. As in the "psychological mumbo-jumbo" to see how the pilot handles unusual situations, the good old "thinking outside of the box" kind of thing.
That ability isn't something that can be taught very easily. you either have it or you don't.
The problem is that that sort of response isn't easy to test.
Sort of like simulator training, while very, very valuable, has it's shortcomings. The pilot knows that he is in for a workout. They don't spend money on sim time to see how well a pilot watches the autopilot.
Although I would bet very heavily that future Airbus sim time will include the computers going into the Alternate Law situations.
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
godfrog 2
The guy that taught me to fly put me into attitudes to demonstrate his point.
It is very difficult for anyone to be told something and when it actually is in that configuration be able to correlate the "learning" what they were told, with the actual feeling they are expieriencing.
I.E. The grave yard spiral.
Calvin19 0
Quote
I really don't know the right answer.
Best post in the thread yet
Quote"thinking outside of the box" kind of thing.
But this is the wrong way to approach this situation.
The problem I have with this crash is that they did not need to think "outside the box".
Without a computer thinking it can outsmart the pilots into avoiding a crash, it would not have put the events that caused the crash into motion.
Maybe the FBW system is needed to keep pilots honest in their flying. Or maybe the problem is the overworked, overstimulated and under-experienced pilots being thrust into a situation that they or their superiors never dreamed was possible because the only thing they ever needed to know was how to control the computer.
billvon 2,354
>force difference.
The 767 yokes, at least, are not physically connected. There is a hydraulic connection (i.e. force is transmitted between the two) but there is no physical connection i.e. no cables/rods as you have with a Cessna 172 yoke. With enough force the two yokes can be operated independently, which is a useful feature if you have a jammed surface.
The same thing can be done with sidestick controllers.
billvon 2,354
Really? I've only got 250 hours flying but when the shit really hits the fan and you have altitude "pull up" is generally the worst thing you can do. Indeed, the stall training that pilots go through is intended to reinforce this - when the plane is stalled, recover by relaxing back pressure to get the nose down.
billvon 2,354
>not have put the events that caused the crash into motion.
Unfortunately the computer did exactly what it was told to do in this case. Indeed, the problem here was that the computer lost its ability to outsmart the pilots - and thus allowed them to stall the plane into the water. Had the computer not reverted (and more importantly had the pilots been able to fly the plane manually) the incident would not have occurred.
Quote>"Trust your instinct" Instinct says pull up.
Really?
This guy's did. Apparently it was so out of what that nobody bothered to think the damned pilot was causing it.
None of the malfunctions made sense because the malfunction was at the controls.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
billvon 2,354
>This guy's did.
Yeah, but I'm wondering how that came to be. Imagine a skydiver telling you "so there I was, still in freefall at 1000 feet, so I trusted my instincts and went into a head-down." You would probably question whether or not that guy had any training at all.
wolfriverjoe 1,329
QuoteQuote
I really don't know the right answer.
Best post in the thread yetQuote"thinking outside of the box" kind of thing.
But this is the wrong way to approach this situation.
The problem I have with this crash is that they did not need to think "outside the box".
Without a computer thinking it can outsmart the pilots into avoiding a crash, it would not have put the events that caused the crash into motion.
Maybe the FBW system is needed to keep pilots honest in their flying. Or maybe the problem is the overworked, overstimulated and under-experienced pilots being thrust into a situation that they or their superiors never dreamed was possible because the only thing they ever needed to know was how to control the computer.
Bolding mine.
That's what I mean by "outside the box."
From the article:
QuoteWhile Bonin's behavior is irrational, it is not inexplicable. Intense psychological stress tends to shut down the part of the brain responsible for innovative, creative thought. Instead, we tend to revert to the familiar and the well-rehearsed. Though pilots are required to practice hand-flying their aircraft during all phases of flight as part of recurrent training, in their daily routine they do most of their hand-flying at low altitude—while taking off, landing, and maneuvering. It's not surprising, then, that amid the frightening disorientation of the thunderstorm, Bonin reverted to flying the plane as if it had been close to the ground, even though this response was totally ill-suited to the situation.
What he needed to do was revert to basic stick and rudder flying.
If he had acted as a pilot not a systems manager, this wouldn't have happened.
But in the middle of a thunderstorm, that would not have been easy.
And having it pounded into his head over and over that the systems woudn't allow for this to happen make it very easy to understand how this happened.
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
My wife is hotter than your wife.
the fast track system that gets them into the seat at 400hrs, we don't want any stinking pilots with outside expierience that earned it the hard way!
then spend 95% of their time on auto-pilot.
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