abyzet 0 #1 November 22, 2010 So there are plenty of posts in the forums about the parameters of a student cypres fire OVER 1000 feet. My question is, would a 180 degree turn under 1000 likely provoke a cypres fire? Would this create a situation with enough vertical speed to exceed 29 mph? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #2 November 22, 2010 Ask Roger next time you see him at the DZ. Short answer: depends, but it could. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petejones45 0 #3 November 22, 2010 QuoteSo there are plenty of posts in the forums about the parameters of a student cypres fire OVER 1000 feet. My question is, would a 180 degree turn under 1000 likely provoke a cypres fire? Would this create a situation with enough vertical speed to exceed 29 mph? if the dz is using appropriate size student canopies(280ish) then it shouldn't be an issue although i know of some dropzones that put the expert models into their student/rental gear since some of it has 190s down to 150sLook out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #4 November 22, 2010 Quote if the dz is using appropriate size student canopies(280ish) then it shouldn't be an issue although i know of some dropzones that put the expert models into their student/rental gear since some of it has 190s down to 150s Dude - you really do post some BS. What makes you think that 280 is the "appropriate" size for student canopies? You should probably keep quiet and learn until you know enough for your "advice" to be of value to someone. To the OP - the answer to your question really depends on a lot of factors including wing-loading, canopy size, canopy type and how the 180 turn is performed. As a sensible rule though, no hard turns (meaning toggles below shoulder level) under your hard deck is a good one to follow to avoid not only AAD fires but also induced line twists, canopy collisions in the pattern etc.."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petejones45 0 #5 November 22, 2010 QuoteDude - you really do post some BS. What makes you think that 280 is the "appropriate" size for student canopies? You should probably keep quiet and learn until you know enough for your "advice" to be of value to someone. ok what size would you put them out on? ask anywhere and 280's are pretty much the standard for first jump studentsLook out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #6 November 22, 2010 >if the dz is using appropriate size student canopies(280ish) then >it shouldn't be an issue You can get a student cypres to fire under a Manta if you push it hard enough. However, normal student maneuvers (90 degree turns to land) will likely not cause trouble. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Superfletch 1 #7 November 22, 2010 Well... just for your information... at our dropzone we use Navigator 200's, 220's, 240's and 260's. We have nothing smaller than a 200 for students and nothing larger than a 260. What we allow the student to jump solely depends on their weight and previous canopy control. Gary "Superfletch" Fletcher D-26145; USPA Coach, IAD/I, AFF/I Videographer/Photographer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petejones45 0 #8 November 22, 2010 QuoteYou can get a student cypres to fire under a Manta if you push it hard enough. However, normal student maneuvers (90 degree turns to land) will likely not cause trouble. i'm sure that would require manuevers that a student would most defenatly not do: crank the toggle to feet, front riser spirals(large amount of strengh would be required for that) etc etcLook out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petejones45 0 #9 November 22, 2010 Quote Well... just for your information... at our dropzone we use Navigator 200's, 220's, 240's and 260's. We have nothing smaller than a 200 for students and nothing larger than a 260. What we allow the student to jump solely depends on their weight and previous canopy control. Well... just for your information... you don't represent every dropzone buddy Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #10 November 22, 2010 Quotei'm sure that would require manuevers that a student would most defenatly not do Dude... student MOST assuredly do that shit. All of it. You really don't have a clue what most students can and will do, do you?Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #11 November 22, 2010 QuoteSo there are plenty of posts in the forums about the parameters of a student cypres fire OVER 1000 feet. My question is, would a 180 degree turn under 1000 likely provoke a cypres fire? Would this create a situation with enough vertical speed to exceed 29 mph? Andy, I grabbed a rental Sabre2 170 one day, at the time I was loading it maybe 1.3-1.4. It had a student cypres in it, but I was just doing a hop and pop while my gear was on order from a wrap. In hindsight I should have turned it off, but lesson learned. I fired a student cypress flying straight and doing (what I thought at 297 jumps to be) gentle 90s and landed the two out in a stable biplane. So yes, you should easily be able to exceed the firing parameters with a student cypres and a 180 degree toggle turn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MorfiusX 0 #12 November 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteYou can get a student cypres to fire under a Manta if you push it hard enough. However, normal student maneuvers (90 degree turns to land) will likely not cause trouble. i'm sure that would require manuevers that a student would most defenatly not do: crank the toggle to feet, front riser spirals(large amount of strengh would be required for that) etc etc Students aren't the only ones who might use a student cypress. My DZ's rental gear is also the student gear. It is all Navigator 200-280s, all have the student cypress (actually, they are Vigil's). Lots of people rent the rigs, not just students. Also, I was just looking through the classifieds, someone is selling a complete rig with a Spectre and a student cypress. An experienced jumper may end up using one, it would just depend on the situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petejones45 0 #13 November 22, 2010 I have seen hundreds of students jump and not one has been able to do a fully front riser spiral or crank the toggle so hard that they fire a student cypresLook out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #14 November 22, 2010 Quote Quote You can get a student cypres to fire under a Manta if you push it hard enough. However, normal student maneuvers (90 degree turns to land) will likely not cause trouble. i'm sure that would require manuevers that a student would most defenatly not do: crank the toggle to feet, front riser spirals(large amount of strengh would be required for that) etc etc Quote Quote Well... just for your information... at our dropzone we use Navigator 200's, 220's, 240's and 260's. We have nothing smaller than a 200 for students and nothing larger than a 260. What we allow the student to jump solely depends on their weight and previous canopy control. Well... just for your information... you don't represent every dropzone buddy There are Students who have done those exact things, just "cause" or they had a conversation with some one at the Bon Fire , read it online etc, etc. There are very few Drop Zones that do not have at least a small assortment of student gear with different sized mains. In my experience I have not seen a DZ yet with only one size Student Main. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petejones45 0 #15 November 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteYou can get a student cypres to fire under a Manta if you push it hard enough. However, normal student maneuvers (90 degree turns to land) will likely not cause trouble. i'm sure that would require manuevers that a student would most defenatly not do: crank the toggle to feet, front riser spirals(large amount of strengh would be required for that) etc etc Students aren't the only ones who might use a student cypress. My DZ's rental gear is also the student gear. It is all Navigator 200-280s, all have the student cypress (actually, they are Vigil's). Lots of people rent the rigs, not just students. Also, I was just looking through the classifieds, someone is selling a complete rig with a Spectre and a student cypress. An experienced jumper may end up using one, it would just depend on the situation. You are right but an experienced jumper should know the limitaions of the gear and not try to push their luckLook out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #16 November 22, 2010 Quote ok what size would you put them out on? ask anywhere and 280's are pretty much the standard for first jump students Personally, not being an instructor, I wouldn't make any canopy recommendations for students - and I suggest you do the same. However, the appropriate size canopy for a first jump student depends on their bodyweight. If you were to put a 100lb girl on a 280 it is possible that they would not have the strength to flare it. Did you consider that? I personally have never jumped anything bigger than the 200 I started on."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petejones45 0 #17 November 22, 2010 Quote Quote Quote You can get a student cypres to fire under a Manta if you push it hard enough. However, normal student maneuvers (90 degree turns to land) will likely not cause trouble. i'm sure that would require manuevers that a student would most defenatly not do: crank the toggle to feet, front riser spirals(large amount of strengh would be required for that) etc etc Quote Quote Well... just for your information... at our dropzone we use Navigator 200's, 220's, 240's and 260's. We have nothing smaller than a 200 for students and nothing larger than a 260. What we allow the student to jump solely depends on their weight and previous canopy control. Well... just for your information... you don't represent every dropzone buddy There are Students who have done those exact things, just "cause" or they had a conversation with some one at the Bon Fire , read it online etc, etc. There are very few Drop Zones that do not have at least a small assortment of student gear with different sized mains. In my experience I have not seen a DZ yet with only one size Student Main. Matt I stated that in my first postLook out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #18 November 22, 2010 QuoteI have seen hundreds of students jump and not one has been able to do a fully front riser spiral or crank the toggle so hard that they fire a student cypres Well then your Profiles Experience is not matching your Real Experience, hence the responses your getting. I have seen Cat B and C students spiral with the Fronts. I have even seen a Cat A Flare the Rears, fronts, not flare at all. Point being, if you can think it up, a student can think up more and do it! MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petejones45 0 #19 November 22, 2010 QuoteQuote ok what size would you put them out on? ask anywhere and 280's are pretty much the standard for first jump students Personally, not being an instructor, I wouldn't make any canopy recommendations for students - and I suggest you do the same. However, the appropriate size canopy for a first jump student depends on their bodyweight. If you were to put a 100lb girl on a 280 it is possible that they would not have the strength to flare it. Did you consider that? I personally have never jumped anything bigger than the 200 I started on. I never made any recommendations just stated observationsLook out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petejones45 0 #20 November 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteI have seen hundreds of students jump and not one has been able to do a fully front riser spiral or crank the toggle so hard that they fire a student cypres Well then your Profiles Experience is not matching your Real Experience, hence the responses your getting. I have seen Cat B and C students spiral with the Fronts. I have even seen a Cat A Flare the Rears, fronts, not flare at all. Point being, if you can think it up, a student can think up more and do it! QuoteI have seen Cat B and C students spiral with the Fronts. on a 280? MattLook out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #21 November 22, 2010 And I am telling you that your "observations" are wrong in this case."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petejones45 0 #22 November 22, 2010 QuoteAnd I am telling you that your "observations" are wrong in this case. you are telling me that something i've witnessed and saw with me own eyes is a fabrication of truth and reality? hypotheticaly That would be like me telling you that you have a small john thomas without actually seeing it, only you would know the truthLook out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #23 November 22, 2010 As well as on larger and smaller canopies. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #24 November 22, 2010 Quote ask anywhere and 280's are pretty much the standard for first jump students Ok, name 10 dropzones where they have told you they only use 280s for first jump students. If it is really true that you can "ask anywhere" and get this answer you should have no trouble with this task."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #25 November 22, 2010 Quote Quote And I am telling you that your "observations" are wrong in this case. you are telling me that something i've witnessed and saw with me own eyes is a fabrication of truth and reality? hypotheticaly That would be like me telling you that you have a small john thomas without actually seeing it, only you would know the truth AH HA! Right to the "my dick is bigger than your dick!" argument! MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
