Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long)

[flip2 0]

It´s a Vector 3.

The Picture did a friend of mine. He did it with out a jumper because he didn´t want to damage the rig!

http://www.klick-game.de/5640-Jahre.html

[bmcd308 0]

>>i could bet the lines were on the bottom of the container. why? well first the jumper is experienced and a rigger. and – afaik – he knows for shure that placing excess lines close to the reserve container can put heavy stress on stitchings and the rest of the container during deployment...

well at least thats what we teach our students on our small dz...
<<

The instruction manual for my Wings says to rotate the bag such that the lines are against the bottom of the reserve tray and the bridle attachment is against the bottom of the main container.

Brent

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www.jumpelvis.com

[skycat 0]

I see that the pin protection flap is closed, did it take a lot of force to get the bottom of the flap to bend over like that?

Fly it like you stole it!

[rbagg 0]

So should I be scared now, jumping my new 1800$ Micron which I bought for believing it is the safest out there

An answer from RWS official would be greatly appreciated.

Royi

[Liemberg 0]

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He did it with out a jumper because he didn´t want to damage the rig!

OK, fair enough - I wouldn't want to damage my rig either. However, I can imagine that such considerations don't hold for the manufacturers.
I would think that the forces the deploying parachute puts on the snagged suspension line are more than just the weight of the rig, so although it looks like your friend did the same with that vector, it IS different from what was shown in the 'reconstruction picture' of that omega.
Right now I'm looking with some scepsis to any rig (and there are a lot of them) with a 'bullet proof' pin protection built into the top flap. Wouldn't be the first time that 'design improvement' in one area created unforeseen problems in another area...

Since a lot of the manufacturers are 'reading over our shoulders':

Can you all look into this guys? Please?...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[skycat 0]

So we tried several different ways to reproduce what you are showing on the 2 of the 3 rigs we have in the house.

Mirage MXS/PD113
Javelin RSK/PD113

Mirage
Pin protection flap closed
Completely unable to get the top flap to stay folded over even when tension was on the microline and forcing the flap to be folded at the stiffener.
Pin protection flap open
While we could get the flap to fold at the stiffener we were unable to get the flap to stay folded and hang the rig from the micro line. So I'm going to say this one is inconclusive.

Javelin
Stiffener plate almost reaches the reserve container (about 1/2 inch) so while we could fold it over we could not get the microline to stay snagged. I'm calling this one inconclusive because the OJ that is in the bathtub getting a bath the stiffener has about 2 inches to the reserve container and at 1st glance looks like it could possibly duplicate the problem. Once the reserve is back in it we will test it also.

So at first glance it appears that the size of the rig makes a difference due to the width of the siffener plate. The wider it is the easier it is for it to bend when folded which is what seems to "lock" it in place. This also means that while we couldn't duplicated it with the 2 small rigs we have you may be able to duplicate the problem with a J4 or M4, so YMMV.



*disclaimer - No rigs were frozen in the making of these test results*

Fly it like you stole it!

[flip2 0]

no you don´t need a lot of force to do it.

http://www.klick-game.de/5640-Jahre.html

[skycat 0]

What size container and reserve?

Fly it like you stole it!

[domFF 0]

Quote

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I would think that the forces the deploying parachute puts on the snagged suspension line are more than just the weight of the rig, so although it looks like your friend did the same with that vector, it IS different from what was shown in the 'reconstruction picture' of that omega.

I agree! I think, lifting a rig of the ground is NOT the same like lifting a jumper of the ground! I think that a little force could eventually clear the situation shown in the pics of the Vector 3. Therefore you can not compare the pics of the Vector 3 and the Omega.

take care
Dom

[goose491 0]

payback462 said:

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he puts his thumb through the big ring on his 3 ring after he cuts away, thinking thats his reserve, struggles to pull it, then pulls his thunb out, all the while his right hand is searching for it, then finally gets his reserve handle with his left hand and pulls it.

it seems like the intention wasnt to pull on the lift web, but just that he didnt LOOK before putting his hand on what he thought was the reserve handle.

And you answered:

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Get over it. It took him 3 seconds between pulling the cutaway and pulling the reserve. After having a friend of mine tug on his till impact, I'd say he did fine, not perfect but he overcame a mistake rather quickly. Take the discussion elsewhere.

Hookit,

At malfunction time, three seconds is a LONG time dude! I must respectively disagree and chime in that this is actuall very much a gear and rigging issue (combined with safety and training) which has been discussed here before. The jumper in question grabbed the wrong piece of his gear for reserve activation. This error cost him 3 seconds of his life and was due to the change in position of the ring due to his particular situation.

This is how "Gear and Rigging" applies:

-From Parachute Malfunctions. safety, emergencies:

Large ring and ripcord handle

Older harnesses used a plain round ring for the largest of the rings in the 3-Ring canopy releases. When the main canopy is jettisoned, the largest of the riser-release rings remains on the harness. If the rings flop down on the lift web (in our case, the lift web was shifted by the nature of the malfunction) , the one near the reserve handle may be mistaken for that handle. Both are large silver rings and the reserve handle may have shifted from its normal position. Some jumpers have broken away only to tug on the wrong ring. (our jumper took 3 seconds to realise and correct) Some never lived to tell about it. (ours did, and have video
This is how "Safety and Training" applies:

The proper reserve deployment proceedure is: Look, Grab, Pull. However, audacium states:

Quote

Regarding the reserve actication. He prefers to first touch and then look. Others may prefer to first look at the reserve handle and then touch.

Not harping on the jumper. Glad it all turned out well. Just going to take this moment to repeat... 3 seconds is a LONG time dudes.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[riggerrob 558]

You are thinking in the right direction with your proposed mod.
This problem is not limited to Omegas.
A couple of days before Parachutes de France issue the ATOM Service Bulletin, a visiting jumper asked me to repair his Atom, so I was the first rigger in North America to update an Atom.
I have also updated a couple of Dolphins that were frayed at the right edge of the stiffener and applied the Dolphon update to a dozen old Javelins.
Bill Booth has seen this wear point on Vectors and is contemplating modifying the corner of his stiffener, but tip flap snags are rare - bordering on non-existent - on Vectors. .
I have also replaced frayed inner top flaps on a dozen Telesis (student rig made by Rigging Innovations), but that is more of a static-line problem.
It seems that there is a subtle relationship between flap aspect ratio, stiffener width, space between edge of reserve and edge of stiffener, etc. Most manufacturers have stumbled onto workable solutions. However, Omega and Atom have to return to the drawing board.
The long term solution is re-designing the flap with a lower aspect ratio and smaller stiffeners. The rounded corners suggested by ciechan are part of the solution.

[feuergnom 22]

again:

emergency sequence/procedures and how the jumper in question managed them is not the fucking theme of this fuckin thread




note to self: why did i expect that this would be a thread without noise?

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[goose491 0]

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again: emergency sequence/procedures and how the jumper in question managed them is not the fucking theme of this fuckin thread

"Lighten up Francis" ... really... who's it hurt huh? Your third ring is your third ring, your reserve handle is your reserve handle. Knowing which is which or where each one is right now... is knowing your gear.

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note to self: why did i expect that this would be a thread without noise?

Maybe because you hear sensless noise whilst people take a quick aside to address a next safety issue concerning the incident IN QUESTION. Don't make such a stink and this thread will be less "noisy" my friend.

Because like it or not this is a Gear and rigging thread. It's not like I'm posting one-liners in here.

I think my post clearly indicates how getting your thumb stuck in the third rign of the release system is most definately a gear and rigging issue.

As in. Know your gear! Know that that handle can move around depending on the nature of your mal. Depending on how your weight is suspended. I quote an article from this very site. It talks about malfunctions. A gear and rigging issue no? I'm not making waves or "noise" as you call it. And as previously stated, I'm not harping on the jumper. But to be fair, it's pretty bold to say that a migrating reserve handle is not a gear and rigging issue.

It was mentioned that it happened. How it happened has also been pointed out. It's been confirmed that this jumper could have benefited from some additional 3 seconds during this high speed mal.... and then you guys start flaming for not staying on topic???

Not cool dude. You have no cause to be angry.

Just accept it as a valid point and LOOK, GRAB, PULL!

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Liemberg 0]

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Maybe because you hear sensless noise whilst people take a quick aside to address a next safety issue concerning the incident IN QUESTION.

Maybe he hears sensless noise because some people are making...uh....

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I think my post clearly indicates how getting your thumb stuck in the third rign of the release system is most definately a gear and rigging issue.

??? It is a SAFETY & TRAINING issue. That is why we TEACH and TRAIN people from jump number one on to LOOK at the reserve-ripcord when grabbing it, it may be somewhere else than where you would expect it, especially when a SUSPENSION LINE GOT STUCK ON A FLAP OF YOUR MAIN CONTAINER, which IMHO is the real issue here.

Then again, you might want to re-check the title of the thread.

(In case you dont know - if you don't look, grabbing the large ring in stead of the ripcord can happen with almost any rig; having a suspension-line caught by a flaps stiffener plate takes a bit more effort... and PLEEEEZZZ don't come back with a-pud-in-stead-of-metal-handle-ripcord...)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[Falko 0]

Just to clarify:

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A couple of days before Parachutes de France issue the ATOM Service Bulletin, a visiting jumper asked me to repair his Atom, so I was the first rigger in North America to update an Atom.

... that is, the old Atom Millenium (which is outdated and not manufactured by PdF any more)

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However, Omega and Atom have to return to the drawing board.

That is what they did with the Atom LEGEND... a complete new design!
See the photos in this thread (german language) here. (The photos say it all, I was trying to get a line to snag on any of the flaps, to no avail.)

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[jumpwally 0]

Hey,,who knows,,maybe in this situation the 3 seconds put in him a better time and place ( time/sequence)..if he fired right away it may have tangled right away and for good. Who knows'.......having his harness twisted silly legitimize' where he thought his silver was...glad he made it,,not all of us would have !!!

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[Falko 0]

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The long term solution is re-designing the flap with a lower aspect ratio and smaller stiffeners. The rounded corners suggested by ciechan are part of the solution.

Hi Rob,
what do you think about this (just brainstorming):

Sewing-in stiffened "bars" (maybe 1cm-1.5cm) alongside or inside the side seam of the deflector flap to prevent the line from cording up the flap, but still maintaining some bending flexibility for the flap to sit snug on the Pod.
These plastic stiffeners would not be rigid (as in "iron" ) but stiff enough to allow the flap to maintain a certain trapezoid shape.
It would be important for the bars to be aligned in a tapering angle to allow the line to slide down and over the grommet-stiffener.

This is more of the approach of the Atom Legend, where the Flap 1 (loop flap) is almost rock solid, making a line snag virtually impossible.

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[riggerrob 558]

Sewing-in stiffened "bars"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

We discussed a similar idea with Bill Booth last week, but since no one has died from this type of malfunction while wearing a Vector, Bill is reluctant to change a proven design.
My attitude is minimalist. I believe that fewer stiffeners are better. For example, if there was no stiffener or lump in end of the flap, then there would be nothing for suspension lines to grab. Granted, you need some stiffening to spread the load from the grommet to the fabric, but my bias is to make stiffeners as small as possible.
The dark side of stiffeners is that too many designers use stiffeners for purely cosmetic reasons. For example, early Vector 3s had stiffened lower edges to their reserve side flaps. Bill admits that stiffeners were mainly to eliminate ugly wrinkles. As soon as he figured out how to build Vectors without wrinkles, RWS eliminated the stiffeners.

[chri 0]

Does nobody know if this malfunction ever happened with another rig, except Omega? When the design according to manufacturer is quite similar, why its not the case with another rigs (Atom problems should be fixed).
There are far more jumps made with javelins, and nobody here knows about an similar incident.
very strange IMHO

[Maxx 1]

I own a Teardrop SF which has a similar "stiffener" design and on the ground I can "hook up" a line in the same way as it happened with the Omega.. But I don't know if this has actually happened in freefall before with that rig..
Last year I saw the same thing happen in Spa (Belgium) with a Next (Paratec) gear, but in this case the flap got half way teared apart and so the line cleared..



Max

[feuergnom 22]

i am giving this one a bump because there was a fatality with the original container/canopy combination (see in incidents)

if any of the riggers out there has any information/suggestion - PLEASE speak up.

i am devasted that this had to happen and right now i'm just crying (and i'm not ashamed of it)

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[diablopilot 2]

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I have never heard of this happening before.

I've seen it happen on two occasions. Once on a Reflex, freak thing, tore the flap off.

Once on a Sigma.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[speedy 0]

In a word yes.

Today, someone jumping a tear drop discovered after opening that one suspension line was wrapped around the right flap. She tried to free it but could not. After managing to get the canopy to fly straight she elected to land it. One witness said the canopy looked like a bag of shit. It did not flare too well but the jumper suffered no injuries. The advantages of jumping a light wing load I suppose(probally less than 1.1 to 1). On the ground she asked me if she should have chopped .
Never thought to use her hook knife to cut the offending line.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl